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      - best players of all time (discussion)
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atila
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  Date Posted #1 Wednesday, October 17, 2012 03:36:14 AM   

No particular order:

Dain
Bisare
Dug
CD
ACX
Jodo
Seth
-----
turtle
Turk
Jr. Dain
QQ
-----
ATILA
Egg
-----
HM: yumy, allust, beelzebub, legacy


not that everyone else was that unremarkable, but why do you (or whoever) belong on this list? or above the guys i consider the HM/fringe...


edit: good call on QQ, gary
 
Detrimental
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  Date Posted #2 Wednesday, October 17, 2012 04:57:04 AM   

what? 
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  Date Posted #3 Wednesday, October 17, 2012 11:53:33 AM   

i see how it goes 
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  Date Posted #4 Wednesday, October 17, 2012 12:28:04 PM   

I think this is his list for possible names for his future son. 
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  Date Posted #5 Wednesday, October 17, 2012 07:36:16 PM   

Bagman 
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  Date Posted #6 Wednesday, October 17, 2012 07:53:01 PM   

i dont 
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  Date Posted #7 Wednesday, October 17, 2012 07:54:09 PM   

Originally posted by Realm
I think this is his list for possible names for his future son.


in which case i would name him ACX so you can tell him u were named after a license plate of some guy i dont really know but played an online game with 
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  Date Posted #8 Wednesday, October 17, 2012 09:32:01 PM   

you had me at "i came" 
atila
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  Date Posted #9 Thursday, October 18, 2012 02:55:29 AM   

hahaha yesssssssssssss



a case could be made for turtle in the 2nd tier - opinions? 
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  Date Posted #10 Thursday, October 18, 2012 03:14:17 AM   

this is kinda homo 
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  Date Posted #11 Thursday, October 18, 2012 01:32:37 PM   

is this like find the connections game? cause im not getting it 
Gary
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  Date Posted #12 Thursday, October 18, 2012 08:31:20 PM   

Jesus you guise are daft. It's top players ever. 
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  Date Posted #13 Thursday, October 18, 2012 09:25:07 PM   

Originally posted by Volv
this is kinda homo


 
atila
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  Date Posted #14 Thursday, October 18, 2012 10:11:22 PM   

nah gary people that feel they are top of all time and aren't listed are just acting like "cant be a top list if i'm not on it!"

aka volv and kuja etc ;)

i don't know why realm is being like that though cause LOL! haha jk realm



edit: upon further discussion, turtle got moved to 2nd tier greatest 
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  Date Posted #15 Friday, October 19, 2012 06:35:34 AM   

Seems like a good list to me. I would probably put Speedy on the list somewhere, I always thought he had the best shot in the league. Darter was pretty awesome the first few seasons as well. 
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  Date Posted #16 Friday, October 19, 2012 09:50:16 AM   

Lith, Staid, crimson... (not that I liked Lith or Staid) If it's all-time, this list is a lot more closely related to the timeframe after the initial decline of the league. An all-time list is hard, and nearly impossible to create.

I also feel that your HM belong on that list over you. That's my personal opinion, not trying to knock you; though it's typically bad form to vote for ones self in a "best of" list. You definitely deserve to be in HM though. 
Detrimental
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  Date Posted #17 Friday, October 19, 2012 09:54:01 AM   

Agreed with Realm. The best years of GB are season 2, season 3. Anyone that reached their prime or peaked after that don't count. I'm proud to have been average throughout my career, never getting better or worse. Just average. I spent most IGBL matches riding along the edge of the map admiring the nice animation on the spectators. Do I have the least carry time per minute of anyone that's played any significant amount of time? I've got to be close to the bottom.

I'm like... the Cliff Levingston of GravBall. 
Gary
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  Date Posted #18 Friday, October 19, 2012 11:42:29 AM   

I scored 66 goals in this league? I find that hard to believe. 
atila
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  Date Posted #19 Friday, October 19, 2012 12:54:40 PM   

agreed hard to an all-time list, i would throw lith or staid or crimson if they lasted more than season 2.

gb did peak in season 2 - 4/5 you will get no argument from me about that however at the same time, ability continued to rise as well. with that said, if you were dominant for 4-5 seasons in a still fairly strong league (before season 7/8) then that goes a long way and cannot be discounted.

moreover, i am humble enough to view players fairly, but i also have perspective.

guys like yumy did a lot for the league but skill wise he wasn't considered more than above average until the last 3-4 seasons - which says a lot.

beelze had an awesome peak during GB's peak, great leader, but was a filler his entire second half of career. he's the ONLY HM i would maybe rank at egg/my level.

legacy was very solid for a long time but also came after gb had already peaked and was never a FORCE - a great great wing player. i discounted players a bit who didn't really get going til gb's last 10 seasons (also why i dropped turtle a tier).

allust always solid, never carried a team but integral player.

with all that in mind, i feel completely OKAY with ranking my HM players where i did and putting myself (slightly) above them.

of course, i'm sure you can make your arguments, but i am extremely content with my reasoning. 
atila
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  Date Posted #20 Friday, October 19, 2012 03:14:36 PM   

i forgot to notate for you, realm, that, if this game was still going i wouldn't include myself. but its over, so why not just talk about the game from a "step back" approach. i am humbled that you believe i am within my "HM" list, but here is why i ranked myself:

if i quit after season 6-7-8, you would probably have held me in a higher regard, but because your final memories of me are probably of an above average vet style player, you think, "well, you were good, but you really weren't THAT good.."

- peaked from season 4 - 11
- top 5 killer season 4 - 8 (in terms of ability AND stats), top 15 killer season 9, 10
- top 5 assists season 4 - 7, 10, 13 (in terms of ability AND stats), top 10 assists season 15
- top 5 defender season 4 - 7, top 10 defender season 8 - 10, top 15 defender season 15
- top 5 scorer season 11, top 15 scorer season 9
- 2nd best player on 2 championships
- 2nd or 3rd best player on 5-6 (cant remember) bagman appearing teams

(i say top 5 to be general and leave room for opinion, a few of those "top 5" seasons you could consider me 1st or 5th depending on the season and what you were looking for, regardless top 5 means elite at that position)

not to mention being a captain or co-captain on several very strong squads, a community leader in many aspects including league changes and conflicts, and constantly on the leaderboards for 10+ seasons in a row

i don't want to toot my own horn as every player above me on my top lists can put up these numbers or better which is why i have them rated above me. but *some* people have always tried to slight because i talk a lot and i talk openly and i'm candidate when i do it.

besides, a little discussion doesn't hurt, glad to see this place is still alive and kickin', gb4life 
atila
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  Date Posted #21 Friday, October 19, 2012 03:23:42 PM   

just saw PT post - i thought about ranking speedy, but ultimately, he didn't really play at the league level until the the talent pool had diminished significantly... probably one of, if not the most, skilled GB'er to ever play, but it's difficult to accurately rank him among the greats when he never competed against them at the league level.

nothing but mad respect for speedy, but he didn't make the rankings for the same reason guys like kuja or _____ didn't - their best league seasons were when the league wasn't quite as relevant.

also darter had some interesting seasons, a solid defender, had 2 or 3 really good seasons but wasn't dominant for more than a short stretch of time each time he was. too many seasons spread out or being the 4th or 5th best player on his team.

PT you had the skill to, at the very least, be HM or better, but your gb league career was a mess. 
Detrimental
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  Date Posted #22 Friday, October 19, 2012 03:24:40 PM   

you should write an almanac about gb babe 
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  Date Posted #23 Friday, October 19, 2012 03:33:49 PM   

atila remember when we created the 2nd greatest map in gb history 
atila
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  Date Posted #24 Friday, October 19, 2012 03:53:58 PM   

det - i would love to, and would have so much fun doing it

allust - is that even a question? it was the 2nd best map ever and the best named/color schemed/our dicks are huge


i should also notate that, everyone in tier 1 was a bonafide "star" and everyone in tier 2 and 3 (with the exception of QQ) were great support players. Dain Jr could also fill the roll of "star" but was muuuuuch better as a #2 guy.

a case could be made that cd13 was never a star/doesn't belong in tier 1 because he never played on a squad where he was the only elite player....
 
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  Date Posted #25 Friday, October 19, 2012 04:13:56 PM   

Solid points. I find myself nodding my head. 
atila
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  Date Posted #26 Friday, October 19, 2012 08:33:22 PM   

=D


ranked, just for fun:

1. Dain Gandalf
2. Bisare
3. ACX
4. Dug Fin
5. Jodo-Kast
6. Seth
7. cooldaw13
-----
8. turtle
9. Quina Quen
10. Dain Jr.
11. wickedturk
-----
12. atila
13. egg 
Detrimental
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  Date Posted #27 Saturday, October 20, 2012 02:35:11 AM   

Do a top 50 of all time. 
atila
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  Date Posted #28 Saturday, October 20, 2012 02:52:37 AM   

i dunno man, that opens up a whole new can of worms... then i'd have to mix in guys who were gone after season 2-3 and consider guys who came up in season 15-16 
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  Date Posted #29 Saturday, October 20, 2012 10:14:09 AM   

Originally posted by Detrimental
Do a top 50 of all time.


....or a top 250, you know keep going till you get to Det 
Gary
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  Date Posted #30 Saturday, October 20, 2012 11:46:02 AM   

Originally posted by Peregrin Took
Originally posted by Detrimental
Do a top 50 of all time.


....or a top 250, you know keep going till you get to Det


Ouch. 
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  Date Posted #31 Saturday, October 20, 2012 01:48:36 PM   

Originally posted by Peregrin Took
Originally posted by Detrimental
Do a top 50 of all time.


....or a top 250, you know keep going till you get to Det


Your mother was a whore. 
atila
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  Date Posted #32 Saturday, October 20, 2012 02:21:55 PM   

Originally posted by Peregrin Took
Originally posted by Detrimental
Do a top 50 of all time.


....or a top 250, you know keep going till you get to Det


I lol'd IRL - 5/5 fantastic delivery 
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  Date Posted #33 Saturday, October 20, 2012 04:53:26 PM   

borderline corny 
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  Date Posted #34 Saturday, October 20, 2012 04:56:46 PM   

oh look the yearly "name the players that were good in 2005" thread 
atila
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  Date Posted #35 Saturday, October 20, 2012 09:56:07 PM   

oops forgot about cruel. 
atila
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  Date Posted #36 Saturday, October 20, 2012 09:58:02 PM   

Someone should make a "best of the dark ages" for all your bitter little bitches.


=) 
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  Date Posted #37 Sunday, October 21, 2012 10:42:43 PM   

I think we should make a best players of Ambush list instead...

Good list, atila. I agree with most of your placements.

PS: Volv would fall into the same category as speedy... both players r0x'd 
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  Date Posted #38 Monday, October 22, 2012 06:12:30 AM   

Originally posted by atila
Someone should make a "best of the dark ages" for all your bitter little bitches.


=)


rofl @ this 5/5 
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  Date Posted #39 Monday, October 22, 2012 06:28:06 AM   

Only one person was the best from start to end.

Dain.


Literally. 
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  Date Posted #40 Monday, October 22, 2012 07:34:51 AM   

and now he's dead 
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  Date Posted #41 Monday, October 22, 2012 08:24:05 AM   

whoa now partner 
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  Date Posted #42 Monday, October 22, 2012 01:56:08 PM   

:O 
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  Date Posted #43 Monday, October 22, 2012 04:11:33 PM   

Gemini Knight should be on that list, he was awesome! But he didn't play many seasons...so I dunno :/

I wish we could play again, damns! 
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  Date Posted #44 Monday, October 22, 2012 04:59:56 PM   

Originally posted by ACX
Gemini Knight should be on that list, he was awesome! But he didn't play many seasons...so I dunno :/

I wish we could play again, damns!


Yup. GK, Dain, Beelzebub, and Darter were a big influence on my game. 
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  Date Posted #45 Monday, October 22, 2012 05:17:40 PM   

DID THEY DIE W/ BALL A LOT TOO?

LOL 
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  Date Posted #46 Monday, October 22, 2012 05:25:59 PM   

I think atila forgot about jello. 
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  Date Posted #47 Monday, October 22, 2012 05:56:31 PM   

Sinai isn't on this list because...? 
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  Date Posted #48 Monday, October 22, 2012 07:54:32 PM   

this is duuuumb 
atila
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  Date Posted #49 Tuesday, October 23, 2012 12:58:59 AM   

Originally posted by Allustrious
DID THEY DIE W/ BALL A LOT TOO?

LOL


hilarious



Reason why awesome guys like GK and Sinai didn't make my list:

I considered that I'd rather have a guy who is top 10 for 10 seasons than a guy who was top 5 for 3 seasons. The player who stays dominant for a longer period has a stronger impact on the game which is why I have a ton of respect for players like GK, Sinai, Khaos, crimson, etc, etc, but they didn't make the list.
 
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  Date Posted #50 Tuesday, October 23, 2012 04:57:09 PM   

chaoz

im sure im top 50 ezpz 
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  Date Posted #51 Tuesday, October 23, 2012 05:22:25 PM   

lists that exclude the vast majority of S1/S2 GF1 and Alliance are wrong.

:goldenagebitches:

in before "stoneagecomments" 
atila
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  Date Posted #52 Tuesday, October 23, 2012 05:49:27 PM   

s2 godsend > gf1 + ta

sorry playa 
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  Date Posted #53 Tuesday, October 23, 2012 11:11:41 PM   

LOWDOWN BEST SQUAD EVAR. 
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  Date Posted #54 Wednesday, October 24, 2012 04:30:23 AM   

I mean, I realize where I stood in the entirety of the league. Bottom end, got it. But why are you on your own list Atila? You were never as good as most of the people you are listing yourself with. At best you belong in the company of the fringe. But then again, your mouth has always been bigger than your ability. This is all purely conjecture and not personal, so don't take offense. 
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  Date Posted #55 Wednesday, October 24, 2012 07:19:50 AM   

Originally posted by Anborn
lists that exclude the vast majority of S1/S2 GF1 and Alliance are wrong.

:goldenagebitches:

in before "stoneagecomments"


This is a league that ran for 18 seasons, putting anyone on a best player ever list based upon 1 season is crazy, let alone a season where most of us were first learning to play.

It would be like me making an argument that Brady Anderson was one of the best Home Run hitters of all time because he hit 51 in 1 steriod plagued season in the late 90s. No logical person would make that argument and neither should you. 
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  Date Posted #56 Wednesday, October 24, 2012 07:26:23 AM   

Originally posted by Gary
LOWDOWN BEST SQUAD EVAR.


this 
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  Date Posted #57 Wednesday, October 24, 2012 07:54:47 AM   

I remember the CPU announcer in MLB'98 would flip his shit when Brady Anderson went to bat..

"Now batting... BRADDYYYY ANDERSOONNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNN"

lol dude was almost automatic HR 
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  Date Posted #58 Wednesday, October 24, 2012 10:49:30 AM   

Originally posted by Peregrin Took
This is a league that ran for 18 seasons, putting anyone on a best player ever list based upon 1 season is crazy, let alone a season where most of us were first learning to play.


I was one of the best at quickly learning how to play. Adapting to the finer details, not so much. Example: I don't think I moved away from the default key configuration until like S7... 
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  Date Posted #59 Wednesday, October 24, 2012 10:51:12 AM   

I forgot who but I'm pretty sure there was someone who said that they never used strafe 
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  Date Posted #60 Wednesday, October 24, 2012 11:00:54 AM   

People making noise for S1 players are retarded, we had 17 IGBl seasons and most of these guys were faded by S2. Some of those guys prolly would have been greats if they kept playing, but they didn't so they were non-factors.

Also to put things into perspective about how good these S1 guys were, in s2 TA got crushed and to get anywhere GF1 was carried by Dain.

Real all-time 1st all-star team:

Dain
Un0me
Cooldaw13
ACX
Skippy
imagine
Pogu (sub)

After this I guess you could debate about 15-20 players who could be on a 2nd line all-star team but they aren't in the same class. 
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  Date Posted #61 Wednesday, October 24, 2012 11:18:06 AM   

What about Weltch beelz? 
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  Date Posted #62 Wednesday, October 24, 2012 12:01:31 PM   

Allust, that was me. I had just begun to try to implement a new key config for S19 to enable strafing but...yeah...

I don't think I was the only one though. I think I was just the most vocal about it. There were very few of us however, that's for sure. 
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  Date Posted #63 Wednesday, October 24, 2012 12:03:29 PM   

I know Violent Hedgehog used a USB Gravis GamePad Pro to play, which would explain his terribleness. Wasn't he disabled or something too, or am I confusing him with PT? 
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  Date Posted #64 Wednesday, October 24, 2012 12:21:31 PM   

u r such a jerk sometimes  
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  Date Posted #65 Wednesday, October 24, 2012 12:26:38 PM   

 
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  Date Posted #66 Wednesday, October 24, 2012 04:42:50 PM   

Originally posted by Realm
Originally posted by Peregrin Took
This is a league that ran for 18 seasons, putting anyone on a best player ever list based upon 1 season is crazy, let alone a season where most of us were first learning to play.


I was one of the best at quickly learning how to play. Adapting to the finer details, not so much. Example: I don't think I moved away from the default key configuration until like S7...


I essentially ran default except Spacebar was my hopper and Capslock was my stunner. 
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  Date Posted #67 Wednesday, October 24, 2012 05:53:46 PM   

1 = Stunner
2 = Chuck/Huck
Q = Jammer
W = Immobilizer
E = Repel
R = Rocket Rain
A = AP Mine
S = Fusion Bomb
D = Pulse Fire
F = Strafe Left
G = Hopper
Ins(0) Numpad = Strafe Right 
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  Date Posted #68 Wednesday, October 24, 2012 06:45:47 PM   

Originally posted by Peregrin Took
Originally posted by Anborn
lists that exclude the vast majority of S1/S2 GF1 and Alliance are wrong.

:goldenagebitches:

in before "stoneagecomments"


This is a league that ran for 18 seasons, putting anyone on a best player ever list based upon 1 season is crazy, let alone a season where most of us were first learning to play.

It would be like me making an argument that Brady Anderson was one of the best Home Run hitters of all time because he hit 51 in 1 steriod plagued season in the late 90s. No logical person would make that argument and neither should you.


i'm only logical in political threads. seems to be the reverse for most others. 
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  Date Posted #69 Wednesday, October 24, 2012 06:49:40 PM   

Crimson should be on any best-of list, I think. I realize that he didn't play for too long, but he was just way better than anyone else when he was playing (guys like Lith and Staid weren't anywhere near the same level).

Think like Koufax in baseball or Orr in hockey -- didn't play very long but were clearly better than everyone else when they did, so they are still in GOAT discussions. Steve Young might be a parallel in football.  
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  Date Posted #70 Wednesday, October 24, 2012 08:40:26 PM   

I'd compare crimson to Dain. He was of that caliber. I finally got him to play a couple games in the late seasons but after not playing for a LOOONG time he was super rusty - but even with the rust, as a spectator, you could see that he had "it" in there somewhere still.

That being said, atila has defended his position quite well as to why those that didn't really play throughout the years were not really considered (though that argument does sort of remove you as a proper candidate too, sir Jodo-Kast). 
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  Date Posted #71 Wednesday, October 24, 2012 10:03:09 PM   

Originally posted by Beelzebub
People making noise for S1 players are retarded, we had 17 IGBl seasons and most of these guys were faded by S2. Some of those guys prolly would have been greats if they kept playing, but they didn't so they were non-factors.

Also to put things into perspective about how good these S1 guys were, in s2 TA got crushed and to get anywhere GF1 was carried by Dain.

Real all-time 1st all-star team:

Dain
Un0me
Cooldaw13
ACX
Skippy
imagine
Pogu (sub)

After this I guess you could debate about 15-20 players who could be on a 2nd line all-star team but they aren't in the same class.


great post, agreed with this completely (6 out of 7 on this list are my top 7). i like your way of looking at it - just overall ability/skill/effect and not necessarily having to consider league play - because that allows us to include speedy who was probably one of the 2-3 most talented GB'ers ever in his prime [when he was like 11 years old (no that is not a joke)].



daed, absolutely no offense taken - your words exemplify EXACTLY what i summed up in my post earlier to realm explaining why i listed myself - you should read a little more carefully, perhaps? ;)

(considering you were gone for about 10+ seasons, it would be a bit foolish of you to think your words hold much weight.) 
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  Date Posted #72 Wednesday, October 24, 2012 10:24:01 PM   

Daed was gone for only a little more than you were. 
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  Date Posted #73 Wednesday, October 24, 2012 10:52:13 PM   

my post stands ;) revisionist history is easy to consider... hey, if i made you a believer, then that is all that matters to me! 
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  Date Posted #74 Wednesday, October 24, 2012 11:14:05 PM   

I agree with your described reasoning and thought-process in choosing your list. I didn't say I agreed with it. :P 
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  Date Posted #75 Thursday, October 25, 2012 03:21:13 AM   

psh w/e 
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  Date Posted #76 Thursday, October 25, 2012 04:01:37 AM   

 
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  Date Posted #77 Thursday, October 25, 2012 04:06:29 AM   

lol 
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  Date Posted #78 Thursday, October 25, 2012 09:20:26 AM   

That's how you sell a fucking Pepsi. 
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  Date Posted #79 Thursday, October 25, 2012 11:26:22 AM   

I know right, I've got a raging Pepsi boner right now.  
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  Date Posted #80 Saturday, October 27, 2012 10:49:38 AM   

 
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  Date Posted #81 Saturday, November 03, 2012 01:27:37 PM   

 
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  Date Posted #82 Saturday, November 03, 2012 03:51:40 PM   

well said tao. pretty selfish bad post atila 
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  Date Posted #83 Saturday, November 03, 2012 08:36:49 PM   

haha selfish bad post that led to a fun discussion? you guys are such babies sometimes, most people thought the list was OKAY enough to discuss, just a few of you whining about it.

also zynorial, your comments are ridiculous, you bring up daed fighting terrorists as me disrespecting him or something... dude, fuck off.

it's hilarious how much hate i get for posting a list about a dead game just cause i added my own name as a bottom tier of "great players". i made it VERY CLEAR as to why i didn't throw in every great on there, i explained it over several posts, actually.

if you want to make a history of gravball list, go for it, then you can throw people like nakamichi, sinai, lith, chaoz, khaos, pikachu, isopur, forefall, etc etc on the list. there were probably 100 players who had a higher peak than me during season 2 (when GB had its highest talent level) but i was very clear as to why i didn't list them on my list. i'm not going to repeat because you (and daed) always have a hard time with reading comprehension. not just here, esp on facebook, giving me responses to things i didn't say.


i don't take offense to, well anything, so i consider your "flame" a positive addition, but if you wanna keep bitching over several paragraphs perhaps you'd be better suited making a best of season 1 and 2 list.

i wasn't around season 1, so i cant comment on it. and season 2 i was still a newb so i cant comment on who the best of the best were then.



so in conclusion, suck it!


ps: well said, qs? there was nothing eloquent about that post. 
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  Date Posted #84 Sunday, November 04, 2012 02:44:06 AM   

blah blah blah blah blah 
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  Date Posted #85 Sunday, November 04, 2012 08:01:24 AM   

Originally posted by teqnikal diffikultiez
blah blah blah blah blah


 
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  Date Posted #86 Sunday, November 04, 2012 08:14:59 AM   

Originally posted by atila
haha selfish bad post that led to a fun discussion? you guys are such babies sometimes, most people thought the list was OKAY enough to discuss, just a few of you whining about it.

also zynorial, your comments are ridiculous, you bring up daed fighting terrorists as me disrespecting him or something... dude, fuck off.

it's hilarious how much hate i get for posting a list about a dead game just cause i added my own name as a bottom tier of "great players". i made it VERY CLEAR as to why i didn't throw in every great on there, i explained it over several posts, actually.

if you want to make a history of gravball list, go for it, then you can throw people like nakamichi, sinai, lith, chaoz, khaos, pikachu, isopur, forefall, etc etc on the list. there were probably 100 players who had a higher peak than me during season 2 (when GB had its highest talent level) but i was very clear as to why i didn't list them on my list. i'm not going to repeat because you (and daed) always have a hard time with reading comprehension. not just here, esp on facebook, giving me responses to things i didn't say.


i don't take offense to, well anything, so i consider your "flame" a positive addition, but if you wanna keep bitching over several paragraphs perhaps you'd be better suited making a best of season 1 and 2 list.

i wasn't around season 1, so i cant comment on it. and season 2 i was still a newb so i cant comment on who the best of the best were then.



so in conclusion, suck it!


ps: well said, qs? there was nothing eloquent about that post.


 
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  Date Posted #87 Sunday, November 04, 2012 10:17:40 AM   

Jump was tab for me. Alt was fusion bomb.

I couldn't jump-fusion bomb or I'd minimize my screen.

I was the worst. 
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  Date Posted #88 Sunday, November 04, 2012 11:11:06 AM   

would be funnier if you set jump to f4. 
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  Date Posted #89 Monday, November 05, 2012 12:33:18 AM   

i didnt read a lot of this thread but did you really say s2 was the height of gb's talent level? i don't think its biased at all to say it's impossible it was earlier than s8, imo s12-14. For christ sake it took people 12 seasons to put in a possession timer and most seasons didnt even need one because offenses didn't figure out to be patient and play well. And defenses werent stout enough to warrant critical thought during offensive attacks.

players that were great in the later seasons had to be 10x better in all facets of the game and play smarter, just saying. of course the players that dominated early would have been able to play that well too given time, so its the same babe ruth vs. barry bonds era argument (fyi bonds was a lot better.) There is also to consider all the measures that were taken to dampen individual player importance and emphasize team play and numbers/matchup based play, you used to be able to have 3 reps and 2 pds and 2 jams and 3 octs in league. As the game got older jams and stuns got hypernerfed, 1 rep 1 pd, 1 oct, hopper reloads, chucker removal, carry time lowered, etc etc. Most of these I agree with anyway but idk just rambling.

blame beelze 
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  Date Posted #90 Monday, November 05, 2012 02:27:19 AM   

See, I agree with Cruel.

It's an insult to me for anyone to sit here and pretend that Sinai in Season 2 with 1 year of experience was better than me in Season 15 with 10 years of experience.

This league had to remove chuckers from play because guys like ACX, imagine and Kuja could hit shots from the goal entrance with 90% accuracy. It had to severely reduce stunners because Allust and cooldaw would hoard them for defense instead of burning them at midfield. It had to reduce ball carry duration because guys like Quina and Cruel were virtually unkillable with the ball because they could predict defensive flow.

The quality of play between the two time periods isn't even comparable, Season 1 was like JV, Season 2-4 was Varsity, Season 5-9 was College, and Season 10-beyond was Professional.

Just look at the final standings for Season 15, Rare finished 5th and Hooligans finished 6th because the rest of the league had caught up and God bless his soul Dain and Unome had become average. 
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  Date Posted #91 Monday, November 05, 2012 02:46:21 AM   

eh, you two didn't just present some fascinating point of view. playing STYLE evolved, but the player talent pool did not.

if season 2 sinai played until season 15 he'd probably shit on all of you. no, he DEFINITELY would.


that should be pretty easy for you two intelligent individuals to understand. 
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  Date Posted #92 Monday, November 05, 2012 04:28:07 AM   

Straw man argument, he didn't stick around so how good he would have been is irrelevant. 
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  Date Posted #93 Monday, November 05, 2012 01:19:28 PM   

 
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  Date Posted #94 Monday, November 05, 2012 01:57:44 PM   

CRAZYNORIAL 
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  Date Posted #95 Monday, November 05, 2012 03:05:31 PM   

lol 
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  Date Posted #96 Monday, November 05, 2012 04:02:39 PM   

Would Wilt dominate Shaq? 
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  Date Posted #97 Monday, November 05, 2012 07:32:26 PM   

Originally posted by Cruel
There is also to consider all the measures that were taken to dampen individual player importance dampen op random special & high reso imporance and emphasize team play and numbers/matchup based play, you used to be able to have 3 reps and 2 pds and 2 jams and 3 octs in league. As the game got older jams and stuns got hypernerfed, 1 rep 1 pd, 1 oct, hopper reloads, chucker removal, carry time lowered, etc etc. Most of these I agree with anyway but idk just rambling.

blame beelze



fixd 
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  Date Posted #98 Tuesday, November 06, 2012 03:44:38 PM   

Originally posted by Detrimental
Would Wilt dominate Shaq?


hell to the no 
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  Date Posted #99 Tuesday, November 06, 2012 03:56:54 PM   

Originally posted by Beelzebub
Originally posted by Cruel
There is also to consider all the measures that were taken to dampen individual player importance dampen op random special & high reso imporance and emphasize team play and numbers/matchup based play, you used to be able to have 3 reps and 2 pds and 2 jams and 3 octs in league. As the game got older jams and stuns got hypernerfed, 1 rep 1 pd, 1 oct, hopper reloads, chucker removal, carry time lowered, etc etc. Most of these I agree with anyway but idk just rambling.

blame beelze



fixd


We should have removed hopper too and just renamed it to SUPER SOCCER BRAWL Z. The z is for the Dragon Ball Z kids to attract them to our zone over their sloppy version of SB. 
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  Date Posted #100 Tuesday, November 06, 2012 05:36:50 PM   

ba dum dum tsshh 
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  Date Posted #101 Tuesday, November 06, 2012 06:38:06 PM   

Originally posted by Gambler
Originally posted by Detrimental
Would Wilt dominate Shaq?


hell to the no


I wonder. And is it fair to compare early 2000's IGBL to 1960s-1970s NBA? 
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  Date Posted #102 Tuesday, November 06, 2012 08:01:03 PM   

most influential or remembered maybe but not most talented, skill prob peaked somewhere between season 12-14 (imo), if it were most talented speedy cruel volv should def be on that list

if i had to rank them in order i would pick them for scrims (which is best way to do it i believe) without taking into consider their relationship with me

Dain
turtle
CD
ACX
un0me
speedy
cruel
dug

-----
i suppose the HM's would be

turk
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Jr. Dain

swear i didnt even read cruels post b4 posting what i thought most talented seasons were

shit i remember playing in one of my first seasons and scoring multiple goals when the nme was still defending in goal. This was when i was still complete garbage. You could probably never get away with that in any season past 11. It would just be a throw-away if u passed to the wrong person in goal.

Just based on how much i got better from season 6-16, and how that skill fit into league, i feel i can make an accurate assessment of what season skill peaked in. I found seasons where ppl started to actually play a little safer organized and started using their heads were a lot harder to succeed in.  
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  Date Posted #103 Wednesday, November 07, 2012 10:54:44 AM   

...and yet the completely safe play that never challenged the defenders as they planned their offensive attack led you to get your seriously easily made chucker shots from outside the goal. I mean seriously...if you see a red dot on radar just sitting in the same spot and the team keeps passing them the ball...fucking attack them, they're planning something. herp derp...let's nerf/remove chuckers instead.

I would NOT say that skill itself increased in the later seasons. I would say that game flow advanced. There's a minor, but significant difference. Skilled players were always skilled players. 
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  Date Posted #104 Wednesday, November 07, 2012 01:01:58 PM   

What? Defenders doing a sortie from goal choke to challenge attackers was a sure way to guarantee a goal scored on you by turning over every single defensive position advantage to other team.

 
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  Date Posted #105 Wednesday, November 07, 2012 02:13:48 PM   

Only if it was 6v6, which it rarely was. If you died in a rush to break up the offense and make them regroup, you'd get back on defense fast enough (death timer, even when increased, wasn't a huge deterrent when the stallfense tactics were in play) you'd then get a rep/PD and maybe even another special (dependent upon randomness and resolution size) to assist further on defense. 
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  Date Posted #106 Wednesday, November 07, 2012 04:15:24 PM   

Outside your goal zone? you die and you give attack 15-25 seconds at 6v5. People realized this was great, and so arose "stallfence" tactics where you hold out until this advantageous situation is created. So why we had to put in carry clock. 
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  Date Posted #107 Wednesday, November 07, 2012 04:45:38 PM   

Originally posted by Realm
Only if it was 6v6, which it rarely was.


...and just to clarify (again) - any time defense was equal to, or less than the offensive numbers would also be a qualification to (pretty obviously) not do this. 
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  Date Posted #108 Wednesday, November 07, 2012 08:13:45 PM   

Originally posted by atila
if season 2 sinai played until season 15 he'd probably shit on all of you. no, he DEFINITELY would.


The problem with this statement is that season 2 Sinai was playing against such simple opponents that absurd domination was TONS more possible within the restraints of the game. (I'm sure you understand this.) As opposition improves infinitely, there occurs an exact point where even a player with totally perfect keystrokes couldn't dominate on the level that a s2 player could because this is a computer game, not basketball - we all have the same height, speed, weapons. (cue laptop players mentioning reso)

If Sinai played until s15 he most definitely would NOT shit on all of us, because within the restraint of the game, it was not possible to completely dominate top players consistently. The good players were way too good to allow room between their head and the ceiling for someone to completely hold over them. I mean, Dain by consensus pretty well dominated gravball from beginning to end and won less than 1/3 of the championships in a league where there were usually about 6 contending squads, half of them serious. Why? Because even though he was better than nearly everybody at any given point, other players were too good to get steamrolled totally endlessly. I mean we have a romanticized view of Dain since he and GB died, but it's not too hard to remember long stretches where other players were outplaying him.

To put it simply - people played too well and approached the ceiling for unexploitable playing. Great players got waaay too good for it to even be possible for someone to simply dominate them. Gravball didn't have enough decision-making or keystroke input for enough possibilities to play better than your opponent, especially a smart opponent who is going to play in such a way that even further limits these possibilities. Especially when the times that you do outplay your smart opponent, they will learn and adjust and even start using the method or tactic or strategy you used. 
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  Date Posted #109 Thursday, November 08, 2012 10:26:05 AM   

Well it was also a team game and no matter how talented some of their top players were, IGBL teams were only as good as their worst starter... There were very few seasons where one squad was so stacked to completely dominate all competition.

This community was actually pretty sportsmanlike about avoiding stacking. Dain himself was on SPC during the long pre-season 2 (transition from HG to SOE) but left when he saw how talented SPC was shaping up to be. 
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  Date Posted #110 Thursday, November 08, 2012 12:49:34 PM   

Sounds like heaven 
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  Date Posted #111 Thursday, November 08, 2012 12:54:07 PM   

We should ask Dain what he thinks.

Anyone have a Ouija board? 
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  Date Posted #112 Thursday, November 08, 2012 04:36:42 PM   

Beelze - that's my point. It's a team game (especially the later the seasons got) because the advantage even the very best player had over other players was easily dwarfed by differences between normal players and a weak link. If you think of it as a percent scale or whatever, most normal players were about 75% output of the best players, the best were 100%, and the worst were anywhere from like 10% and up. Way more room to suck than to dominate.

This is why team sports aren't the purest form of competition, only 1v1. 
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  Date Posted #113 Thursday, November 08, 2012 07:19:32 PM   

Suck is especially magnified in a precision game like GB where a pass off by 1cm is diff between goal and fumble.
 
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  Date Posted #114 Friday, November 09, 2012 12:18:30 PM   

Originally posted by Beelzebub
Suck is especially magnified in a precision game like GB where a pass off by 1cm is diff between goal and fumble.


Guy who fumbled a lot here: I can confirm this. 
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  Date Posted #115 Friday, November 09, 2012 01:37:19 PM   

1cm? More like 1mm. Especially considering there's latency. 
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  Date Posted #116 Friday, November 09, 2012 02:42:27 PM   

sounds like u guys r talking about ur penises

HUEHUEHEUHEUHEUEHUE 
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  Date Posted #117 Friday, November 09, 2012 02:47:42 PM   

 
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  Date Posted #118 Saturday, November 10, 2012 11:53:04 AM   

Originally posted by Allustrious
We should ask Dain what he thinks.

Anyone have a Ouija board?


lmao 
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  Date Posted #119 Sunday, November 11, 2012 09:50:34 AM   

This is why team sports aren't the purest form of competition, only 1v1.

My man

 
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  Date Posted #120 Sunday, November 11, 2012 08:29:46 PM   

i'd shutup if i was you, you got ranked 
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  Date Posted #121 Monday, November 12, 2012 01:46:25 PM   

speedy cruel dain acx dug un0 wouldnt lose to anyone ever lol 
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  Date Posted #122 Monday, November 12, 2012 02:09:49 PM   

I'd swap out Cruel for Lethal in that lineup, solely for the purpose of balance...and because oftentimes Cruel and Dain didn't agree offensively; plus it's good to have another support-style player on the field. 
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  Date Posted #123 Monday, November 12, 2012 02:53:32 PM   

I'd swap out cruel for anyone else b/c he was inactive during GB's most competitive seasons 
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  Date Posted #124 Monday, November 12, 2012 02:57:28 PM   

Under that pretext you'd probably have to swap out imagine too...why he referred to himself as speedy though...lulz. 
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  Date Posted #125 Monday, November 12, 2012 06:21:38 PM   

1,2,3,7 belong there, everyone else you can wipe your ass with including yourself lol... you put yourself on the list lol.

you forgot mexican2032 or some shit whatever his name was and what about CREAM you bitch niggas...

This should be a gb soccer top player thread it was the only reason people played gravball anyways...

the best guy at this gayness offed himself cause of yyou queers 
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  Date Posted #126 Monday, November 12, 2012 07:07:37 PM   

choppybro!! would be only name on there anyways
brainscan was dope too, same person?

man i loved gb soccer
 
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  Date Posted #127 Monday, November 12, 2012 10:52:51 PM   

Originally posted by Realm
I'd swap out Cruel for Lethal in that lineup, solely for the purpose of balance...and because oftentimes Cruel and Dain didn't agree offensively; plus it's good to have another support-style player on the field.


Is this the part where I point out that Lethal was Dain? 
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  Date Posted #128 Tuesday, November 13, 2012 06:13:51 AM   

Originally posted by soma'
the best guy at this gayness offed himself cause of yyou queers


i think it had more to do w/ the fact he couldn't stand amber anymore, which seems understandable 
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  Date Posted #129 Tuesday, November 13, 2012 10:02:51 AM   

Originally posted by Peregrin Took
Originally posted by Realm
I'd swap out Cruel for Lethal in that lineup, solely for the purpose of balance...and because oftentimes Cruel and Dain didn't agree offensively; plus it's good to have another support-style player on the field.


Is this the part where I point out that Lethal was Dain?


Dangit...meant to say Legacy. mb 
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  Date Posted #130 Tuesday, November 13, 2012 02:40:35 PM   

cry about it 
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  Date Posted #131 Tuesday, November 13, 2012 04:23:08 PM   

It's funny you say that because honestly I was a turbosupport, specifically midfield. Everyone's definition of support became "player who will take a 1v1 fight a lot" but for the way I played, keeping multiple enemies distracted and out of position was lots more valuable because dodging had a higher contribution ceiling than damage output.

You stand in and return damage, you're either winning 1v1 or dying to 2v1 or higher. Harass and dodge for 30 seconds versus several opponents and you've kept them off the play for the same critical moment that killing all of them would, and maybe disadvanted them for the next play if they rep or pd or have no nrg because being chased gives you massive tactical advantages for doing damage (AP mines, running behind a wall and quickcamping it, predictable aggressor driving etc.)

I had a reputation as a pure ballcarrier because I did handle the ball a lot and didn't always post a big K/D because my support was more about keeping multiple people busy than killing them. But every season I played [exception of dads s14 - only 1 match] there were players on my team with higher carrytime per minute than me - Dain/un0/malaki on rare, ezra/kuja on dads, quietstorm/malaki on EG. There were a ton of safe offensive situations where wasting your best player on holding the ball is really a misuse for the team.

My standard play when the whole offense was grouped up was to leave the pack, take a faster route ahead and go distract the other team. Steal the specials on their side, make them use specials and stay away from my teammates so they could move the ball with ease at a 5v4, 5v3 or better. There was also the toned down pressure your offense would face from having a feared player on the enemy's side really made them think twice about attacking the ball aggressively because of the break away chance. If shit looked risky on radar for our offense, guess who is coming back to the play to handle the ball when you really need someone who's good at it? Or, the times the only way to get back to the ball was to lead the multiple defenders you're occupying there also, you just run the opposite direction and make them decide if they want to kill you and be undermanned at the ball, or run to the ball and allow you to follow and help your team after having delayed them. Stuff like this was why Dads was so fun -- egg, kuja, ezra -- these guys knew what all their teammates were doing all the time and could capitalize and I didn't have to waste my time babysitting. The two seasons we won the championship were the lowest ratings of all my seasons cause I wasn't always humping the ball.

If by "Cruel and Dain didn't agree offensively" you mean "Dain would yell at cruel cause rockmono and un0me were rusty (and amber sux) and they were irl friends," then yes you're right. Just kidding but only sorta, it is true that dain liked to dump the ball to the lowest nrg player and have everyone park and fight the other team, while I always thought spreading out and cutting and passing would earn you a goal push 100% of the time. Dain would also yell at me cause my kills were lower than amber or jukage, even though a game where I went 8-8 usually meant i had fought as well as if I had twice as many kills.

--

But, when you're the best scorer too, most players miss everything else and assume you're ballerfluff, even though probably every player who ever played this game probably heard me qq about having to babysit the ball. Can't totally blame people though -- by VIRTUE of not being as good as you, they won't understand what you're doing, specifically the things that are better than what they do. It's also a style/approach thing, probably any player in the top 100 had a couple tricks or methods that I wouldn't understand how they knew where to be or do what they did in a situation - and its not that i would see it and fail to comprehend, its that i wouldn't notice it at all.

Realm your post offended me not because you intended to knock me or anything, but because it sells gravball and what it took to be the best at it short - there were lots of different ways to support and for anyone to dominate this game they HAD to be able to. The idea that the star players weren't good support is just wrong -- they were good everything. That idea was pretty universal within this game and couldn't be further from the truth. speedy's team he posted that would never lose a game made me a little moist cause I thought of all that ballstealing help and goal powerpushing savvy with ACX, dug, un0me, and dain while speedy waited in the entrance for a pass with 600 nrg and rep/pd. (jk <3)

TL;DR -- you don't get a tl;dr because i loved this game and spent a lot of time thinking about it and it would mean a lot to me if people read this and knew more about my approach to playing it

Originally I wanted that to be a quick read but there was too much info i wanted to include, it could be a lot longer

inb4 tldr 
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  Date Posted #132 Tuesday, November 13, 2012 04:50:27 PM   

I think you took that a little too personally. Obviously Legacy would only be on a top 10 list to some. That was not my intention in reply to that list, however. If I was simply putting a team together, I feel that would round it out better due to chemistry, all-around balance, and even team temperament (*cough*).

You'd fit fine on a different team of which I probably won't be creating myself simply because it'd take longer than I would really care to spend. 
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  Date Posted #133 Tuesday, November 13, 2012 05:48:11 PM   

stop thinking about my dick or ispec

also go to class fool :D 
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  Date Posted #134 Tuesday, November 13, 2012 05:54:37 PM   

Well, I didn't take it personally at all really, the bit about it offending me was a little too subtle of a halfjoke, unlike your shot at me just now. cough. it would have been better to say it offended my sensibilities but less funny imo. it was supposed to sound excessively romantic but its element of truth showed too much, though i thought the half silly half serious tldr made it clear.

i knew you werent dissing my game or anything and i said as much, when you said "solely for balance" its pretty clear. It's just when you said its to add support to the team that it made me ache to clarify a few things i used to think about when i played. plus that post was fun to write. 
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  Date Posted #135 Tuesday, November 13, 2012 06:21:21 PM   

tl;dr but I did read it 
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  Date Posted #136 Tuesday, November 13, 2012 08:37:34 PM   

I honestly didn't read it all, so perhaps that's why I responded the way I did. Oh wells. 
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  Date Posted #137 Wednesday, November 14, 2012 12:12:41 PM   

AIN'T NO BRAKES ON THE RAPE TRAIN

CHOO! CHOO! 
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  Date Posted #138 Wednesday, November 14, 2012 12:24:08 PM   

guys lets start a whos responsible for gb dying thread

No particular order;

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  Date Posted #139 Wednesday, November 14, 2012 04:47:36 PM   

hehehehe 
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  Date Posted #140 Wednesday, November 14, 2012 07:07:03 PM   

Bounce to score. 
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  Date Posted #141 Thursday, November 15, 2012 01:39:04 AM   

You forgot Edd87 somewhere up there 
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  Date Posted #142 Thursday, November 15, 2012 02:26:31 PM   

Originally posted by Allustrious
I'd swap out cruel for anyone else b/c he was inactive during GB's most competitive seasons


this is hilarious


btw he was active, he just wasn't very good... love you cruel! 
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  Date Posted #143 Thursday, November 15, 2012 03:10:35 PM   

Originally posted by Gary
Bounce to score.


Rofl thank you for reminding me of SlickPony. 
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  Date Posted #144 Thursday, November 15, 2012 05:07:49 PM   

Originally posted by atila
Originally posted by Allustrious
I'd swap out cruel for anyone else b/c he was inactive during GB's most competitive seasons


this is hilarious


btw he was active, he just wasn't very good... love you cruel!


eh active is a big stretch. i was really active from 1999 (before all you sn00bs started playing) to about 2003 when i was 11-14, but in high school and early college i was playing baseball and poker and doing drugs with my friends and only played once in a while. i didnt really play much or care about getting good until 2008.

but hey keep saying whatever makes u silly trolls feel less unsmart for playing twice as many hours as me w/o anyone thinking u were anything but 'solid.' i know u do it cause im easy to provoke but the joke's on you cause i like talking about gb 
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  Date Posted #145 Thursday, November 15, 2012 05:38:07 PM   

plus you went blind for a while 
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  Date Posted #146 Thursday, November 15, 2012 08:06:40 PM   

from fapping? 
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  Date Posted #147 Thursday, November 15, 2012 08:15:15 PM   

didnt cruel have some weird mormon religious thing go down at some point? or am i mistaken. I just remember thinking someone i talked to semi-frequently went of the deep end for a period of time.


also how about best banner makers of all time------ Bekay 
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  Date Posted #148 Thursday, November 15, 2012 08:40:32 PM   

superradish was mormon and so was deadpan

both equally cray-cray 
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  Date Posted #149 Thursday, November 15, 2012 08:48:02 PM   

I'm proud to say I spent less time in GB than probably everyone in this thread. 
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  Date Posted #150 Thursday, November 15, 2012 08:57:46 PM   

remember those late nights detty in kvn <3 
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  Date Posted #151 Thursday, November 15, 2012 11:02:10 PM   

Originally posted by quietstorm77
didnt cruel have some weird mormon religious thing go down at some point? or am i mistaken. I just remember thinking someone i talked to semi-frequently went of the deep end for a period of time.


also how about best banner makers of all time------ Bekay


im a christian and i go to christian summer camp every year but thats it

and banner makers = Treponem pal 
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  Date Posted #152 Friday, November 16, 2012 02:22:20 AM   

Originally posted by quietstorm77
remember those late nights detty in kvn <3


damn it I did spend a lot of time in GB.

KvN was awesome because I could just sit in the goal and bullshit all night

<3 qs 
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  Date Posted #153 Friday, November 16, 2012 03:58:16 AM   

Originally posted by Beelzebub
plus you went blind for a while


so good hahaa


didn't roody become super religious or something? he was super depressed though 
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  Date Posted #154 Friday, November 16, 2012 09:25:02 AM   

Originally posted by Detrimental
I'm proud to say I spent less time in GB than probably everyone in this thread.


...mostly because your internet connection was about as bad as the one I had in college, which was why I stopped playing for a couple seasons. I think I had like 4fps (due to lag) and even the chat was delayed significantly. Man that was horrible. 
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  Date Posted #155 Friday, November 16, 2012 10:06:35 AM   

Originally posted by Detrimental
I'm proud to say I spent less time in GB than probably everyone in this thread.


Anborn, Daed, Kaizen, Zyn, Soma, and Volv all have less playing time then you.

You're not even in the bottom 5 bro, I am disappoint. 
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  Date Posted #156 Friday, November 16, 2012 10:14:52 AM   

Hmm, cool stat to look at. I'm 204th for all-time league play minutes. 
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  Date Posted #157 Friday, November 16, 2012 10:51:50 AM   

what am i 8th? o and look @ that 3rd in goals 
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  Date Posted #158 Friday, November 16, 2012 10:52:51 AM   

After looking at the career stats, I'll buy into your Season 1/2 only arguments.

turtle and Homus have the exact same career stats within 2 minutes playing time of each other. turtle's stats are slightly better but he never had to play on a bad team, Homus had to play on a bad Unmatched squad his first season.

Everyone here would put turtle in the top 10 all-time and Homus would be lucky to crack the top 30. That's a joke... 
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  Date Posted #159 Friday, November 16, 2012 12:48:39 PM   

Originally posted by Realm
Hmm, cool stat to look at. I'm 204th for all-time league play minutes.


You're 204th alphabetically... 
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  Date Posted #160 Friday, November 16, 2012 01:52:11 PM   

Originally posted by Captain Tightpants
You're 204th alphabetically...


...and by most minutes. That's just creepy. 
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  Date Posted #161 Friday, November 16, 2012 02:02:04 PM   

I think you are wrong 
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  Date Posted #162 Friday, November 16, 2012 02:46:20 PM   

Oh crap...I forgot that the numerical order is within the table which is also re-ordered. Dammit. 
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  Date Posted #163 Friday, November 16, 2012 03:06:29 PM   

aka allust was right about u being wrong 
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  Date Posted #164 Friday, November 16, 2012 03:50:22 PM   

Originally posted by Realm
Hmm, cool stat to look at. I'm 204th for all-time league play minutes.


I didn't know I was 11th in kills. Shout out to Dain and Darter! 
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  Date Posted #165 Friday, November 16, 2012 03:55:20 PM   

Originally posted by Beelzebub
Well it was also a team game and no matter how talented some of their top players were, IGBL teams were only as good as their worst starter... There were very few seasons where one squad was so stacked to completely dominate all competition.

This community was actually pretty sportsmanlike about avoiding stacking. Dain himself was on SPC during the long pre-season 2 (transition from HG to SOE) but left when he saw how talented SPC was shaping up to be.


Rare was a good example of this. And Beelze I remember when I joined SPC and saw how you were dissing Rare on the squad forum. "How can we lose to a team with Vess, Bishman, Slick, and Jukage?!" 
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  Date Posted #166 Friday, November 16, 2012 04:36:59 PM   

it's a good question 
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  Date Posted #167 Friday, November 16, 2012 04:48:40 PM   

Originally posted by Peregrin Took
Originally posted by Detrimental
I'm proud to say I spent less time in GB than probably everyone in this thread.


Anborn, Daed, Kaizen, Zyn, Soma, and Volv all have less playing time then you.

You're not even in the bottom 5 bro, I am disappoint.


league stats =/= actual in game playing time poop pooper 
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  Date Posted #168 Friday, November 16, 2012 06:13:52 PM   

Originally posted by Bishman
Originally posted by Realm
Hmm, cool stat to look at. I'm 204th for all-time league play minutes.


I didn't know I was 11th in kills. Shout out to Dain and Darter!


Right behind you dude!

My one regret, was never getting to 2000 kills. 
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  Date Posted #169 Friday, November 16, 2012 07:17:20 PM   

Prior to sony buying out infantry I had about 4000 hours in game. 75% was in gravball. 
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  Date Posted #170 Friday, November 16, 2012 08:36:51 PM   

Originally posted by Bishman
Originally posted by Beelzebub
Well it was also a team game and no matter how talented some of their top players were, IGBL teams were only as good as their worst starter... There were very few seasons where one squad was so stacked to completely dominate all competition.

This community was actually pretty sportsmanlike about avoiding stacking. Dain himself was on SPC during the long pre-season 2 (transition from HG to SOE) but left when he saw how talented SPC was shaping up to be.


Rare was a good example of this. And Beelze I remember when I joined SPC and saw how you were dissing Rare on the squad forum. "How can we lose to a team with Vess, Bishman, Slick, and Jukage?!"


lol rare was crazy. all you needed was dain and un0me and it didnt matter who else was on the roster ( im obv exaggerating). i mean i played like over 70% of our champ matches against godsend and we blew by them, like one game we 3-0'd them in like 7 minutes, and i was doing absolutely nothing except for dieing.. lol

btw with rare i was at every single game but still manged only like 70 minutes of regular season games. never kept a bench more warm than that season. shout outs to yumy for reaching out to me and giving me playing time the following season. b4 that every squad i had a hard time getting playing time.  
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  Date Posted #171 Saturday, November 17, 2012 07:13:40 PM   

And Beelze I remember when I joined SPC and saw how you were dissing Rare on the squad forum. "How can we lose to a team with Vess, Bishman, Slick, and Jukage?!"


this is so hilarious, god i loved playing with beelze 
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  Date Posted #172 Saturday, November 17, 2012 07:19:23 PM   

Originally posted by Gary
Originally posted by Bishman
Originally posted by Realm
Hmm, cool stat to look at. I'm 204th for all-time league play minutes.


I didn't know I was 11th in kills. Shout out to Dain and Darter!


Right behind you dude!

My one regret, was never getting to 2000 kills.


you have 2176 
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  Date Posted #173 Monday, November 19, 2012 04:57:17 PM   

Gary probably mistakenly looked at his death column totals instead of kills. 
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  Date Posted #174 Monday, November 19, 2012 09:43:13 PM   

(? ?° ?? ?°)? 
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  Date Posted #175 Wednesday, January 02, 2013 01:28:41 PM   

good thread 
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  Date Posted #176 Saturday, January 05, 2013 02:52:05 PM   

wish dain was alive to ask him the same question, who he thought top 10 players were, bet it would be pretty different if he wasnt being biased 
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  Date Posted #177 Saturday, January 05, 2013 06:10:06 PM   

Originally posted by Gambler
Gary probably mistakenly looked at his death column totals instead of kills.


Yup, rofl. 
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  Date Posted #178 Sunday, January 06, 2013 09:38:53 AM   

Originally posted by Kuja
wish dain was alive to ask him the same question, who he thought top 10 players were, bet it would be pretty different if he wasnt being biased


I have a pretty good idea what he would say based on the 9999999 conversations i had with him over the years, but if i posted it people would get pissy 
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  Date Posted #179 Monday, January 07, 2013 05:19:07 AM   

Because the opinion of a guy that thought he could stop a moving truck with only his hands warrants much consideration. 
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  Date Posted #180 Monday, January 07, 2013 08:51:41 AM   

Originally posted by Peregrin Took
Because the opinion of a guy that thought he could stop a moving truck with only his hands warrants much consideration.


ya he didnt have nearly the ammount of fat on his body as you do. silly guy 
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  Date Posted #181 Tuesday, January 08, 2013 03:49:45 AM   

Dude I had the worst diarrhea for 4 days but finally getting over it. Now I have terrible raunchy gas its great, my coworkers hate me so much. 
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  Date Posted #182 Tuesday, January 08, 2013 01:24:58 PM   

God the last 4 posts were great. 
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  Date Posted #183 Thursday, January 10, 2013 08:01:25 PM   

best captains (alive):

beelz
me

 
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  Date Posted #184 Friday, January 11, 2013 12:51:48 AM   

best goal of all time

me
probably imagine
oh and serrano

week 15 season 12. highlight of my life. somewhere on the website i think 
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  Date Posted #185 Friday, January 11, 2013 09:00:10 AM   

I remember when I killed Dain for first time in league. I was all



Then he killed me like 3 times and I cried.

Now he's dead IRL tho so I guess I ultimately won. 
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  Date Posted #186 Monday, January 14, 2013 07:01:07 PM   

My top 3 in order would be:
1. Dain
2. Cooldaw13
3. Un0me

I had the most trouble playing against these players in that order. When they were each at their peaks of course. This is simply from my own experiences throughout all my time playing. I had SOME seasons where I felt like I was playing better than each of those guys but for the most part they were better than me. I was never intimidated by them though, in fact I enjoyed the opportunity to play against them.

Defensively I dreaded seeing cooldaw against me. Dain was the most balanced - he played both defense and offense at a very high level and also controlled the mid game very well. Un0me was the most dangerous offensively. Those 3 guys played everything at a very high level though, that's the bottom line. 
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  Date Posted #187 Monday, January 14, 2013 11:05:27 PM   

cuz if you actually saw cooldaw on D it means he had 3290238972398 specials. If you didn't see him, he was still hunting specials. 
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  Date Posted #188 Monday, January 14, 2013 11:09:49 PM   

Nice thread, makes me miss GB. So hard to settle on a top10 that fits the whole lifespan of GB. The sheer skill of play went up every season, but the competitiveness went progressively down after several seasons. I guess a time frame between S2-12 should have the most weight in such an exercise.

Stats help, but they often reflect how good a top player was supported. IE I got dain's award in S13 because my stats got bubbled by squadmates, but it was well passed my peak. I still very much enjoyed the few seasons I peaked in GB, mostly the one of FP and the first ones on GS. It was great to feel in control of the game, to always see the plays in advance and to use everything efficiently, even though the investment of time needed was ridiculous.

As far as players go, I feel like Dain is in his own category. No-one matched his natural talent and his ability to change the game. It always felt like Dain had more energy than anyone else, to not confuse with the wickedturk/volv factor. Of course he eventually declined, but he still should be the clear #1 "of all time".

Then based on your lists, I guess its a choice between Bisare's all-around support abilities, Dug's natural abilities (second only to Dain), cooldaw's calculated efficiency, imagine's sense of opportunity and ACX's offensive brains?

Reguardless, for fun, I'll try a top10 of players I had a tough time playing against (so older players might not appear here :P) :

1 - Dain
2 - Dug
3 - Bisare
4 - cooldaw
5 - turtle
6 - ACX
7 - imagine
8 - QQ
9 - Phabulous
10 - morphi 
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  Date Posted #189 Monday, January 14, 2013 11:43:01 PM   

Morphi? For reals? 
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  Date Posted #190 Tuesday, January 15, 2013 09:11:56 AM   

Ya, the dude always seemed to know how to draw me out of the action to finish him off 
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  Date Posted #191 Tuesday, January 15, 2013 09:16:24 AM   

ALLUSTRIIIISETTHHHHHHH

dynasty bros 
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  Date Posted #192 Tuesday, January 15, 2013 04:42:30 PM   

I miss you Sethela, got facebook or something?

Detty: I had the same reaction as well haha. 
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  Date Posted #193 Tuesday, January 15, 2013 06:30:06 PM   

my top 10 (no particular order) would be:

dain
un0me
seth
dug
cd
turtle
acx
imagine
cruel
QQ

HM: Kuja 
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  Date Posted #194 Tuesday, January 15, 2013 07:52:52 PM   

dain - goat


un0me - the one guy who touched dain. 1,566 bagman trophies.
turtle - guy who did stuff that doesnt show up in the stats better than any1.
malaki - no weaknesses.
turk - no weaknesses, except when he was drunk.
seth - very good all around player, upper tier for many of the middle seasons.
acx - pub god. best ball handler in the game.
cruel - very solid team guy, the most successful player of GB's last few seasons.
qq - always relevant.
cd - pub satan. best 1v1'er in the game.
dug - played so bad he was good.

speedy, legacy, atila, kuja, yumy, beelz, PT, allust, volv, requital, ak1, darter, ezra etc. people that were grade A starters for multiple seasons or really good star types for 1-2 seasons.

then there are all the dudes who were a tiny notch below, but still good for an MVP game at any given time, or a standout season. usually 4th - 5th starter types who didnt take the game as serious.

then you have your Philek, Bewgz, Bishman and FL- types who were solid 6th men on good teams or the mainstay of lower teams.



 
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  Date Posted #195 Tuesday, January 15, 2013 09:43:54 PM   

I miss Gravball. I miss the days of video game skill being determined by something other than who can hit the most buttons the fastest. 
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  Date Posted #196 Wednesday, January 16, 2013 12:01:36 AM   

HoN? 
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  Date Posted #197 Wednesday, January 16, 2013 02:51:30 AM   

Originally posted by egg
dain - goat


un0me - the one guy who touched dain. 1,566 bagman trophies.
turtle - guy who did stuff that doesnt show up in the stats better than any1.
malaki - no weaknesses.
turk - no weaknesses, except when he was drunk.
seth - very good all around player, upper tier for many of the middle seasons.
acx - pub god. best ball handler in the game.
cruel - very solid team guy, the most successful player of GB's last few seasons.
qq - always relevant.
cd - pub satan. best 1v1'er in the game.
dug - played so bad he was good.

speedy, legacy, atila, kuja, yumy, beelz, PT, allust, volv, requital, ak1, darter, ezra etc. people that were grade A starters for multiple seasons or really good star types for 1-2 seasons.

then there are all the dudes who were a tiny notch below, but still good for an MVP game at any given time, or a standout season. usually 4th - 5th starter types who didnt take the game as serious.

then you have your Philek, Bewgz, Bishman and FL- types who were solid 6th men on good teams or the mainstay of lower teams.





??? 
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  Date Posted #198 Thursday, January 17, 2013 11:38:20 AM   

Originally posted by Beelzebub
cuz if you actually saw cooldaw on D it means he had 3290238972398 specials. If you didn't see him, he was still hunting specials.


ROFL

Man, Sundays are not the same anymore. 
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  Date Posted #199 Thursday, January 17, 2013 06:49:17 PM   

my league performance declined in later seasons as sunday became a hangover day more often than not. 
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  Date Posted #200 Saturday, January 19, 2013 03:24:51 PM   

this thread took a turn for the $$$$$$$$$

i really enjoyed seth, acx, and egg's commentaries and breakdowns  
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  Date Posted #201 Saturday, January 19, 2013 08:12:32 PM   

Dug Fin was a master of surviving with less than 100 energy. Actually, I'm pretty sure he played the whole match with his energy capped at 100. 
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  Date Posted #202 Saturday, January 19, 2013 10:41:47 PM   

get ready for a long post!!!!

this is hard to do based on league bc my teams were always ridicstack and nobody really stands out individually so i will try to do it based on scrims/i guess pub so i will do it like seth style

toughest ppl to play against in scrims that i remember

1. cruel hermione granger+brainy
2. acx leader
3. imagine impossible
4. dain intimidating presence
5. kuja bravery+unpredictable

6. i couldnt think of another here so i'll stop at 5. not just gonna list names 2 make ppl happy if they dont really trigger nething for me

nvm i thought of some honorable mentions: rockmono was pretty good, legacy was the person i tried to compete w/ the most when i was newish, turk was my original dad, desperado was great but not around much.

some people who were obv really good like seth, cd, and whatever didnt get on there because in seth's case, i related/competed w/ the ppl on other teams who played similar roles so with gs it wouldve been more leg/desp that i paid attention to, and with cd he was on my team+didnt scrim a lot

godsend was the team i was most excited to play(hard) every season when i was on hool and also the team i was most confident against after s10 or w/e because around then is when i started really playing gb a lot and then we played them in the finals and it was my best match in gb probably

FAVORITE PEOPLE:
volv, egg, dug, aeth, desp, acx, kuja, kaizen, turk, zookini in no order!! :D

most fun season: 14 tfr (vent season 6/7 iirc) Scott Tocs+risk

ppl i still talk to the most:
kuja (hair pics)
egg (text ottoman to egg for vintage furniture pics, standard text messaging rates may apply)


miss it bad!!!

love 
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  Date Posted #203 Monday, January 21, 2013 11:42:32 PM   

you forgot how much you loved me turtle

thx =( 
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  Date Posted #204 Wednesday, October 30, 2013 01:38:56 AM   

Fascinating. Interesting to be mentioned significantly in a thread so many years after I played seriously.

Strap your seatbelts on, because I'm going to necro the fuck outta this thread.

I'll give you my perspective, which will include things I wouldn't say if so many years hadn't passed that nobody's feelings should be hurt. I lied, somebody's feelings are probably going to be hurt:

In my prime, the only player I considered a threat to me in pubbing was Staid. Nobody else was realistically on the same skill level as me. However, my prime pre-League, exclusively pubbing and scrims and the game was very different, in that the hopper didn't exist and most players played at extremely low resolution, meaning that the upper level of skill was determined by how you could play shooting and reacting to things you couldn't see. The lack of hopper of course meant that the game was heavily weighted towards defense and the ability to score depended on your ability to fight off overwhelming odds and most offenses were bound to end in failure. Populations were also higher than they people are used to, and of course, there was only one ball, ever.

In such an environment, I was bound to dominate. I had years of built up skill from playing subspace, giving me an experience advantage over many players, and I am nearly unmatched in my capability to make advance predictions and tactical assessments of 30+ independent actors. I do not say this as a brag or boast, I'm over thirty years old and I can say with confidence that if you ask me to look at an evolving situation of multiple players, I can guess where they will be thirty seconds from now better than anyone I've ever met. I've made millions relying on variations of this skill despite being a lazy, shiftless fuck.

My primary advantage over most players was thus tactical and strategic because I can determine the flow of the game simply by checking radar and the map, and I was dominant at fighting or lobbing beyond the edge of the screen. Realize that without the hopper or modern screen resolutions, the large majority of players did not have the skill to accurately lob the ball to a receiver, particularly picking the moment where he didn't have to expose himself to possible death to receive and there was zero possibility of interception. I could consistently do so. Due to the lack of hopper and thus lack of easy and plentiful active defense, good players were able to dominate bad players more decisively in any fights. Also, bombs coming from off screen with sufficient relative velocity were completely undodgeable. I'm also extremely good at reacting to novel situations in the correct way, which is advantageous when the game hinges on rare successes.

At this point in time, anybody who didn't think I was a top 3 player was simply incorrect (the other player other than Staid being crimson, and he just wasn't as good as we were, although I would say he had the best mechanics). I would strongly argue I was the best player in the game at this point, and there were times where I simply switched teams just to see if I could single-handedly reverse a game.

As you might guess from this, my level of dominance was bound to decrease. The hopper. Better screen resolutions. Octanes. Stunners. Immobilizers. Jammers. I was never a top tier skill-player in terms of mechanics, probably maybe top 10% which meant dozens of players were as good as me, and all of these things whittled away my comparative advantage in that the game became both less tactical and less strategic. On top of that, my ability to learn and adapt quickly ceased to be as important as players simply put more time in the game.

Frankly, GravBall became a less intellectual AND less skilled game. Any player worth his salt recognized that the hopper leveled the playing field more than anything else in the history of GravBall (okay fine, resolutions, meh).

By the time League rolled around, I was no longer the best player, and at best, arguably in the top three, and perhaps as bad as just in the top ten. Not because I had gotten worse, but because the game had changed to strip away my comparative advantage in ways that couldn't be restored. So that was the game when League came around, and I do not believe it could be realistically argued I was a dominant player, although still one of the best. My most crippling flaw was that I was a mediocre shooter because I 1) still had pretty crappy resolution, and 2) didn't practice enough, and shooting, especially in the newer maps, was a matter of practice. I compensated, of course, as I took far less shots and became more of a killer and assister and if I recall correctly, had the most steals/min in the game. Actually I was pretty high up there in ppm too, maybe even #1 or #2, so a fair argument could be made for me still being a top 3 player or so, but certainly I didn't feel I could control the game as I used to be able to.

Anyway, I was never able to fully participate in League in the early days because at no point did I have both 1) my own computer and 2) my own internet completely to myself. Also, I had a really active social life at the time, probably due to me not having a computer. As most of you can probably recall, these presented significant problems to actually playing a game through. That aside, I was convinced two separate times to join IGBL. However, I always knew that my performance in League would be diminished compared to my performance in pub, although I still expected to be a top 10 player. Why? Same reasons. Because league is a non-complex, repetitive, non-novel situation. Fewer players always reduces complexity, and it reduces rapidly. Within a couple of minutes of playing a 1v1, you should know whether you are going to win. Same for a 2v2. A reasonably intelligent person with a couple of thousand hours of experience under his belt can design a five-man play and rehearse until somebody of average intelligence can perform their role reliably, and that's what it takes to win league.

This is why good quarterbacks are usually well above average intelligence, but point guards can get by being average or a little above average.

Anyway, my time in Malice was plagued by poor attendance and crappy connections. I still performed reasonably well, but if I recall correctly, that was a time when my packetloss was terrible, and as a very aggressive player, a single dropped packet could destroy my gameplay as I knew exactly how much energy an enemy I was fighting had and what it would take to kill him. My recollection of season 1 was wishing my connection and time would let me play more. Still, Malice wasn't considered a serious contender for the cup, and that was correct (although I still think they were some of the finest people I ever gamed with) - the top 2 teams had the lion's share of skill and although I was of course offered spots by all teams, I had little interest in further reducing the competitive aspect in the first season of IGBL. I expect that had I been able to play more, Malice would have won a couple more games, perhaps even changing the ultimate winner of the cup with a solid upset, but I had no illusions about being able to win it all.

Season 2...what I don't expect people to remember about Season 2 is that I joined what was considered a 3rd-rate team with no chance of winning, and proceeded to recruit 2nd-rate players based largely on the strength of my reputation as one of the best. I spent significant amounts of time advising who who should be recruited, and also which players should be playing together. I did very little direct coaching, but my ability to judge talent was better than most players, and I scoffed at people's attempts at ranking players, because they were usually terribly wrong. None of the players were anywhere close to top tier except me and Lith, and Lith was a terrible teamplayer. Plus he totally called the girl I liked a two-bagger - what a douche - she was a solid 6, maybe a 7 if you were feeling generous. Okay, fine, 6 and a half. (Fun fact, we went to the same university, and he was the only GB player to know what I actually looked like until I posted a pic of me last year.) Before we started playing, team ratings and analysis largely said to expect a few upsets based on pretty much me, but we weren't a real threat. They were wrong. By the time preseason had ended, my team was considered a top contender for the cup after beating top-seeded teams in close matches. I never actually lost a game I played in, either in preseason or in season. Of course, I stopped being able to attend games, and that essentially was it for Desired. While not the best, I was still too much of a key member of the team to have a statistical chance of winning it all if I wasn't there for the toughest games. Call it hubris, but I had put together a team that could work together with players that were actually far better than people assumed. Point being? Yeah, I can assess player skill far better than the average player, even the average skilled player.


Finally. As for players getting better? No, they didn't. I played under alias a few times when I wasn't actually stopping by under my old name, and despite massive rust, the best players were worse. I specced plenty, and assessing ability isn't any harder than it was ten years prior. Now, despite what I said about it being less of an intellectual game, GravBall is still and always will have significant intellectual elements to it that will allow older, experienced players to perform reasonably well. On the other hand, you're all old fucks now, and on top of that people simply played less on average every week. If you think physical decay isn't a factor, har. Har. The AVERAGE player was (significantly!)better than the average player when I played, simply because bad players and average players improved over time or simply stopped playing and the influx of new players diminished. Note that general flow of a game will improve more by improving the worst players than the best players for reasons that should be obvious. I didn't play at all in the time period of the last few seasons, but I see no reason why the trend would have reversed.

TL;DR

Gravball is not the Gravball you remember. It has changed. It kept changing. Even when the base game stopped changing, League rules changed. Even when rules didn't change, the metagame changed.

To me, Gravball was not League play, because I dislike small matches in anything, because I find them boring and predictable. It is trivial to determine the correct thing to do most of the time, and therefore not interesting to me.

To you, the League may be Gravball. In fact, the longer you played GB, the more likely this is to be the case. Obviously, at this point, we are talking about different things.

On the other hand, in terms of man hours logged playing GB, the average GB player would consider pre-League and Seasons 1-3 or 1-4 to be Gravball. Because that's when people played.

On top of that, most people are terrible at determining skill. For starters, I would never have been the best League player, ever, but not for the reasons most people might think. Fortunately, for other reasons I was never a significant factor in IGBL, starting with my refusal to play for a top team. Also, it is jokes to think that the game evolved in ways that weren't predictable from the start given the ruleset. That the best players didn't play a metagame that didn't exist is dumb to base skill on. You play in a way that gives you the best chance to win at current conditions, you don't bloody play as you would expect if everybody had had ten more iterations of the same thing and capable of learning, slowly. See:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guess_2/3_of_the_average

TL;DR the TL;DR

For better or worse, I was a pubber, and the increased average skill of small matches wasn't worth the tradeoff of reduced complexity to me.

However, it is difficult for me to imagine the skill wasteland that would have to exist for most of the players on this list to rise to the top - the idea of mediocre players after five thousand hours of experience becoming the best after thirty thousand hours of experience isn't something that happens in a thriving, competitive ecosystem. Ever.

TL;DR the TL;DR the TL;DR

Who the fuck could play this for 18 seasons? 
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  Date Posted #205 Wednesday, October 30, 2013 09:37:12 AM   

That was a rather enjoyable read, and although much more thoroughly explained than a few rather succinct posts of my own, I believe I mirrored your thoughts on a few points earlier in this topic.

Thanks for joining Malice, Sinai. Pretty sure you knew that I preferred balanced teams too. I think the most fun I had was being able to use squad chat and busting on team mates after having switched teams to play against you guys in order to make the teams more even (and then usually get chased down either by you or cooldaw13). But pub was always more fun to me, and challenging due to the erratic nature of it, and the ability to show off prowess in predictions. This was one of the biggest reasons I was extremely against team-colored bombs in GB. How more dumbed down did we have to make the game? 
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  Date Posted #206 Wednesday, October 30, 2013 10:01:08 AM   

the more dumbed down it got the better cruel seemed to be. weird huh 
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  Date Posted #207 Wednesday, October 30, 2013 02:46:06 PM   

Sorry but:

"bombs coming from off screen with sufficient relative velocity were completely undodgeable"

Which was the dominant aspect of old low-res, no-hopper GB

Does not really square with the argument that bigger resos and better ability to avoid (hopper) dumbed down the game.

"The hopper. Better screen resolutions. Octanes. Stunners. Immobilizers. Jammers. I was never a top tier skill-player in terms of mechanics, probably maybe top 10% which meant dozens of players were as good as me, and all of these things whittled away my comparative advantage in that the game became both less tactical and less strategic."

I would agree specials were too strong initially and super weapons that detract from player skill which is why the history of both public and league is filled with numerous nerfs of them.
 
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  Date Posted #208 Wednesday, October 30, 2013 04:14:26 PM   

Cool post sinai and thanks for the thoughtful discussion but are you really saying that the game was more advanced after 6 months of play than after 12 years?

That would make gravball the only form of competition to EVER do that, and adding in hopper didn't do that to the game. It made it tons more complex, honestly.

For me it's just billions of times more likely that the old game favored very careful players (because of the HOARDS of mistakes you could wait for from opposition) like forefall, un0me, etc. and the reason you and these others were average when you came back was that the game had passed you by (sorry if that sounds rude or harsh but I can't think of a better way to put it.) By the later seasons you had to be good in so many ways just to be competent, whereas in early seasons simply being cautious was a ticket to the top 25.

Lack of a runclock for me speaks to how unevolved and easy the game was in the early days. People just hadn't thought about the game much, and thoughtful players with good mechanics could just blow everyone away. I mean most players at this time still had strafe set to ALT+directionals so they couldn't circle strafe, or just didn't use it at all.


I mean really, the best players got worse? What seems more likely to you, that every single good player stopped playing, or that after years and years of practice and improvement, the general population became harder to dominate? Especially when you consider so many of these old greats came back and were very easy to outplay.

Your point about mediocre players becoming great after lots of hours of play -- you've gotta remember most of them (us) were 13 years old when we sucked, of course we got better when we reached age 19, etc.
 
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  Date Posted #209 Wednesday, October 30, 2013 05:06:03 PM   

IIRC, optimal hand-eye coordination reflexes peak around age 15 and fall off from there. 
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  Date Posted #210 Wednesday, October 30, 2013 05:11:19 PM   

Which might matter if GB was Tetris or Starcraft. Gravball was more about thinking about strategy and being creative in tight situations and finding small tactical openings. I don't think any good player ever lost because they couldn't press keys quickly enough for what they were seeing.

Frontal-lobe higher reasoning reaches full maturity at age 25 which is much more relevant. 
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  Date Posted #211 Wednesday, October 30, 2013 05:28:34 PM   

Originally posted by Cruel
I don't think any good player ever lost because they couldn't press keys quickly enough for what they were seeing.


"FUCKING LAG!!!" *rage quit*


....hahaha. Ah, memories. 
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  Date Posted #212 Wednesday, October 30, 2013 06:00:30 PM   

u crack me up sinai i think ur post might have just been a troll post. implying that gb was sooo much more challenging when you couldn't hop and there were no specials. ya okay. sorry but having to deal w/ specials and people having the ability to hop is much more difficult.

i think these old players that played for like 2 seasons and think they defined gb couldn't keep up with having to keep track of so many different things going on that they were just like fuck this shit.



 
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  Date Posted #213 Wednesday, October 30, 2013 06:17:27 PM   

The essential problem with your argument was that I was still better than you Allustrious by several standard deviations after they added the fluff.

Also, I left as an exercise for the reader the most important change from early IGBL to late IGBL, which nobody has mentioned yet as far as I saw. Naturally it denigrated built-in ability and replaces it with...

Avoiding bombs from off screen was quite possible using the map and tactical reasoning of course. I scanned the large map roughly every three seconds for less than a twentieth of a second. 
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  Date Posted #214 Wednesday, October 30, 2013 06:27:55 PM   

I'm not sure about my hand-eye coordination, but my hand-eye reaction time personally peaked at age fourteen at roughly 80 ms. I can't even manage double that these days, and it makes a huge difference in almost anything physical.

It took me less than a month of play to reach 90% of peak performance. I understand that my learning curve is steeper than most people, but mechanically gravball is not complex and as stated, I had years of muscle memory built in from subspace which is functionally very similar. Even without it though, I can reach 90% of peak in most low-intensity, low total complexity activities with simple rulesets like Gravball in well under five hundred hours. You have to understand the careful distinction between analog and digital game; it takes a human brain far less time to assimilate the data and spit out the correct response when inputs and outputs are digital. It's like playing a keyboard versus the piano.

Frankly, all of the rule changes made in IGBL over the course of 18 seasons were discussed before the end of season 1, usually in detail. The future evolution of small team play was obvious to quite a few people.  
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  Date Posted #215 Wednesday, October 30, 2013 06:31:19 PM   

I guess my post is too hard to rebuff. Can tell you're an old school player by the way you ignore difficult targets and focus easy ones. Natural ability!
 
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  Date Posted #216 Wednesday, October 30, 2013 06:37:39 PM   

Cruel: I have already addressed all your points in my rather long post. Also, it would be trivial to determine that reflexes do matter in Gravball. Example: Reacting to a PD when about to pass or shoot, an extremely rapid event where proper reaction time makes the difference between a fumble/miss or a pass/score. 
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  Date Posted #217 Wednesday, October 30, 2013 06:55:29 PM   

No you didn't

But just so we're clear, your long post and the one to which I am replying, while interesting and nostalgic, are otherwise bloated, braggy submissions with wordy excuses about how hopper, lag, and not being 14-15 years old are the reason you couldn't hang. Certainly not the death of opponent inexperience, and with it, most any edge you had.

Pub is better because 16v16 of people playing poorly is harder than 6v6 of experts? Right.

I don't mean to just completely be a dick because this thread is about having fun reminiscing but at the risk of being irreverent, everything you mentioned to be unique about your game was incredibly standard, and the notion that your edge was based on being a cautious player with previous experience (subspace) is a valid one.

I suck with the definition of irony but is it ironic when someone says natural ability stopped mattering and the game became too dependent on experience when experience was the only edge they had which then disappeared so they blame positive changes to the competitive environment? Or is that just a washed up romantic who wants to keep annoying things like facts and reality out of a nostalgia party? 
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  Date Posted #218 Wednesday, October 30, 2013 11:35:25 PM   

un0me
dain
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jodo
crimson
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dug fin
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these are just players that always owned me. I remember lying about scoring goals and assists when I first started playing (i guess 2003 or so), not even knowing they kept stats, o'sirus called me out on it. 
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  Date Posted #219 Thursday, October 31, 2013 05:04:18 AM   

Let me be entirely clear Cruel. The primary reason I was better than most players including you was that I was significantly smarter than other players and able to apply it strategically and tactically. That is not a gap that can be bridged, ever.  
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  Date Posted #220 Thursday, October 31, 2013 06:22:25 AM   

to think you are smarter than literally everyone that ever played GB is a laughable assertion. maybe if intelligence is measured by the number of meaningless words you can throw together to try to argue a horrible point (being generous) then yea I guess you're wicked smart guy

sounds like you probably have some sort of lingering oedipus complex or maybe some daddy issues that still need to get worked out

an intriguing troll effort either way 
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  Date Posted #221 Thursday, October 31, 2013 08:03:49 AM   

Originally posted by Sinai
Let me be entirely clear Cruel. The primary reason I was better than most players including you was that I was significantly smarter than other players and able to apply it strategically and tactically. That is not a gap that can be bridged, ever.


Which is why you always stayed under alias when you came back? It CERTAINLY wouldn't be because your immensely inflated self-image-carrying ass didn't want to risk tarnishing your unwarranted legacy. Feel free to provide us with names you played under during the middle-late seasons while observing how much better you were than anyone that pummels your extremely stupid posts. I'm sure the top players will remember the phantom grandmaster that was head and shoulders above us all.

Let me drop a little knowledge on your relatively dumb ass -- you're not the only smart person to play video games. The best gravball players were smart, like you no doubt are, but also realized that other smart people played the game too. We respected our opponents and knew how to keep our ego in check enough to realize we had to PLAY good, not just spout bullshit about how smart we are and mention net worth on forum posts. We're proud that you're a millionaire, but that's not particularly unique in the gravball community and is not relevant to player ability or game situations.

I suppose at this point I could refer you to the picture of the graver's award under my name, and the lack of one under yours. But again, you wouldn't want something like relevant results or facts to roadblock your little self indulgent pat-myself-on-the-back crap that you came here to do, which is becoming more evident with each baseless post in which you simply claim to be better than players you never actually played face to face against, and ignore any discussion of real content, hard evidence and reality. 
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  Date Posted #222 Thursday, October 31, 2013 08:11:12 AM   

Alternatively, let me use your approach, with the exception that each of the following are actually true and my conclusions are not wholly imbecilic -- My IQ is comfortably above genius level, but that is not enough to beat everyone at a video game, real things like practice and critical thought and an objective approach were necessary to succeed, and dozens of us played this game at a level you could never hope to sniff.

I didn't want this thread to get nasty but you abandoned discussion in favor of unfounded claims of grandeur and uncomfortable, misplaced appeals to mathematics and self-praise. If you'd like to resume discussion of gameplay and the environment of skilled players, I'd obviously love it, but it seems you've realized you're overmatched in this area and are now just looking to claim you're the greatest. Perhaps another change to gravball that doesn't fit you is that the community doesn't let boasty posters make idiotic statements because of who the author is and what claims he makes, and instead evaluates them for their content. I mean really man, do a little re-reading and realize how indefensible some of your positions are. I feel a little bad for being mean but you are just so bad and wrong and rude. 
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  Date Posted #223 Thursday, October 31, 2013 09:03:26 AM   

I disagree with a couple points.

First, playing on low resos doesn't make the game more intellectual or strategic. To use your sports analogy, putting 10 nearsighted guys out on a basketball court won't result in a more intellectual or nuanced game. It will just result in, well, worse basketball. Does it give an advantage to people with faster reflexes? Maybe, but that's hardly intellect, and you don't have to be a gravball savant to figure out that if there are red dots on the radar in front of you, it might be a good idea to get ready to dodge.

Second, adding hopper didn't level the playing in field. It made the gap between the haves and have-nots wider. The haves knew when to expend the energy and jump. Dodging without jumping became even more valuable, as those people have an even greater relative advantage in terms of energy loss.

Specials, on the other hand, ruined the game from an intellectual point of view. It doesn't take a strategic mind on par with Napoleon to sit at the entrance to the goal with a load of stunners. 
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  Date Posted #224 Thursday, October 31, 2013 11:04:16 AM   

Originally posted by Sinai
Let me be entirely clear Cruel. The primary reason I was better than most players including you was that I was significantly smarter than other players and able to apply it strategically and tactically. That is not a gap that can be bridged, ever.

That's the stupidest fucking thing ever Dain was borderline retarded and he was lightyears better than you. I'm sure you are fairly intelligent, but to make that assertion makes you look a lot less intelligent than you claim to to be. Shit using your logic I dominated a zone that had 10X the amount of players than GB so I should be on some Stephen Hawking level of thought.

 
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  Date Posted #225 Thursday, October 31, 2013 11:21:57 AM   

Originally posted by Rascal.
I disagree with a couple points.

First, playing on low resos doesn't make the game more intellectual or strategic. To use your sports analogy, putting 10 nearsighted guys out on a basketball court won't result in a more intellectual or nuanced game. It will just result in, well, worse basketball. Does it give an advantage to people with faster reflexes? Maybe, but that's hardly intellect, and you don't have to be a gravball savant to figure out that if there are red dots on the radar in front of you, it might be a good idea to get ready to dodge.

Second, adding hopper didn't level the playing in field. It made the gap between the haves and have-nots wider. The haves knew when to expend the energy and jump. Dodging without jumping became even more valuable, as those people have an even greater relative advantage in terms of energy loss.

Specials, on the other hand, ruined the game from an intellectual point of view. It doesn't take a strategic mind on par with Napoleon to sit at the entrance to the goal with a load of stunners.


haha bet Napoleon wish he had some stunners when the Prussians rolled into town haha right Rascal haha 
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  Date Posted #226 Thursday, October 31, 2013 11:25:13 AM   

The far more appropriate analogy to use is whether or not turning fog of war on or off makes Starcraft a more skill-based game.

Cruel: Any points you attempt to make are dwarfed by the fact that my dominance of you was absolute, and everything else is pissing into the wind. 
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  Date Posted #227 Thursday, October 31, 2013 11:30:34 AM   

For the sake of argument, you may submit your null hypothesis for why I was so much better than you, if not my intelligence, considering I was a mechanically flawed player.  
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  Date Posted #228 Thursday, October 31, 2013 11:32:18 AM   

Originally posted by Allustrious
Originally posted by Rascal.
I disagree with a couple points.

First, playing on low resos doesn't make the game more intellectual or strategic. To use your sports analogy, putting 10 nearsighted guys out on a basketball court won't result in a more intellectual or nuanced game. It will just result in, well, worse basketball. Does it give an advantage to people with faster reflexes? Maybe, but that's hardly intellect, and you don't have to be a gravball savant to figure out that if there are red dots on the radar in front of you, it might be a good idea to get ready to dodge.

Second, adding hopper didn't level the playing in field. It made the gap between the haves and have-nots wider. The haves knew when to expend the energy and jump. Dodging without jumping became even more valuable, as those people have an even greater relative advantage in terms of energy loss.

Specials, on the other hand, ruined the game from an intellectual point of view. It doesn't take a strategic mind on par with Napoleon to sit at the entrance to the goal with a load of stunners.


haha bet Napoleon wish he had some stunners when the Prussians rolled into town haha right Rascal haha


Actually Napoleon handled the Prussians fairly well it was the when they dropped the P that the problems began. 
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  Date Posted #229 Thursday, October 31, 2013 12:43:57 PM   

Happy Halloween everyone! 
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  Date Posted #230 Thursday, October 31, 2013 03:21:40 PM   

A Russian winter is a rocket rain. Amirite? 
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  Date Posted #231 Thursday, October 31, 2013 03:43:28 PM   

Originally posted by Sinai
For the sake of argument, you may submit your null hypothesis for why I was so much better than you, if not my intelligence, considering I was a mechanically flawed player.



 
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  Date Posted #232 Thursday, October 31, 2013 04:10:38 PM   

Sinai touched upon it, but probably the most challenging thing in GB was getting people to pass accurately and judging proper times to do it where interception risk was low. Especially when resos grew so defenders could plot out steal attempts at longer range, zone defences came into effect too so faster cutting and passing was needed to get around and punch through them. Add to that when we added the run clock so you couldn't just take 10 minutes carefully meandering downfield, carefully protecting ball. There was generally more speed in play as we progressed into runclock era in reaction to the stall offence being perfected.

At that point passing execution became paramount and a miss of pixels, or some guy dumbly holding onto ball until last second and being an easy target of defender disruptions was the biggest downfall of possessions (the worst in goal zone attacks when the hog/blinder factor really got magnified). This was definitely the biggest thing I noticed, as someone who spent a lot of time yelling at people about it.

I would say overall the biggest factor of my gameplay decline was not age-reflex factor (I still do quite well in fps games) but that Sunday became hangover day and on too many nights I was playing GB when I should have been in bed 3 hours earlier. 
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  Date Posted #233 Thursday, October 31, 2013 04:29:17 PM   

Originally posted by Sinai
FUCKING LONG MEANINGLESS POST ABOUT HOW SMART I AM


 
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  Date Posted #234 Thursday, October 31, 2013 05:00:44 PM   

Originally posted by Beelzebub
At that point passing execution became paramount and a miss of pixels, or some guy dumbly holding onto ball until last second and being an easy target of defender disruptions was the biggest downfall of possessions (the worst in goal zone attacks when the hog/blinder factor really got magnified). This was definitely the biggest thing I noticed, as someone who spent a lot of time yelling at people about it doing that myself


fixed 
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  Date Posted #235 Thursday, October 31, 2013 07:31:08 PM   

Originally posted by Beelzebub
Sinai touched upon it, but probably the most challenging thing in GB was getting people to pass accurately and judging proper times to do it where interception risk was low. Especially when resos grew so defenders could plot out steal attempts at longer range, zone defences came into effect too so faster cutting and passing was needed to get around and punch through them. Add to that when we added the run clock so you couldn't just take 10 minutes carefully meandering downfield, carefully protecting ball. There was generally more speed in play as we progressed into runclock era in reaction to the stall offence being perfected.

At that point passing execution became paramount and a miss of pixels, or some guy dumbly holding onto ball until last second and being an easy target of defender disruptions was the biggest downfall of possessions (the worst in goal zone attacks when the hog/blinder factor really got magnified). This was definitely the biggest thing I noticed, as someone who spent a lot of time yelling at people about it.

I would say overall the biggest factor of my gameplay decline was not age-reflex factor (I still do quite well in fps games) but that Sunday became hangover day and on too many nights I was playing GB when I should have been in bed 3 hours earlier.


Probably shouldn't drink like a fuckin' hoser then.

 
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  Date Posted #236 Thursday, October 31, 2013 09:25:24 PM   

i think i miss spec chat the most of anything related to gb.
wish we still had a bunch of ppl playing on sundays, i used to look forward to gb so much on sundays.

what i wouldnt give to have the numbers of players we had in s10 back and the enthusiasm 
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  Date Posted #237 Friday, November 01, 2013 01:05:18 AM   

I agree with Sinai but I'm not sure to what degree it matters.

Len Bias could have been the greatest basketball player of all time but he wasn't.

How good you were for 1 or 2 seasons in the context of 18 seasons is borderline irrelevant. 
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  Date Posted #238 Friday, November 01, 2013 04:49:29 AM   

hey maybe if you cunts spent less time circlejerking we might have a zone to play in

just sayin 
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  Date Posted #239 Friday, November 01, 2013 06:57:59 PM   

Sinai reminds me of Dain, except he uses words with just a few more syllables.  
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  Date Posted #240 Saturday, November 02, 2013 01:15:50 AM   

I was never as good as I wanted to be simply because my fucking hand eye coordination was to damn slow. It never occurred to me to shave down my keys to possibly speed up. hell 
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  Date Posted #241 Saturday, November 02, 2013 03:50:40 PM   

Sinai, subspace is still active. Give me a few weeks to practice and I'll be glad to pound your ass in a zone of your choosing

 
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  Date Posted #242 Saturday, November 02, 2013 10:18:57 PM   

We should all meet up in a Subspace zone other than HZ and play a little. 
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  Date Posted #243 Sunday, November 03, 2013 01:32:20 PM   

Powerball is the only zone that matters in SS. Maybe we should combine communities. Just move GB to PB.

Or if they ever bring back Metal Gear CTF. That was the shit.

If anyone ever plays, I'm there sometimes as Tico. 
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  Date Posted #244 Sunday, November 03, 2013 02:09:14 PM   

I'd like to posit that there is no GB community anymore ok 
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  Date Posted #245 Sunday, November 03, 2013 02:22:43 PM   

I was just talking about u and me sweetie 
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  Date Posted #246 Wednesday, November 13, 2013 12:21:57 AM   

a serious response to a troll... but let's see if we can't actually be intellectual about it as opposed to just trolling.

I'm going to focus on these two paragraphs and their implications:
"As you might guess from this, my level of dominance was bound to decrease. The hopper. Better screen resolutions. Octanes. Stunners. Immobilizers. Jammers. I was never a top tier skill-player in terms of mechanics, probably maybe top 10% which meant dozens of players were as good as me, and all of these things whittled away my comparative advantage in that the game became both less tactical and less strategic. On top of that, my ability to learn and adapt quickly ceased to be as important as players simply put more time in the game.

Frankly, GravBall became a less intellectual AND less skilled game. Any player worth his salt recognized that the hopper leveled the playing field more than anything else in the history of GravBall (okay fine, resolutions, meh)."

So the implication here is that the 'dominance' was based on intellect and skill. The addition of octanes, stunners, immobilizers, jammers and even the hopper reduced the impact of intellect and skill.

First, we need to ignore the a) contradiction about having a mechanical skill advantage due to practice in the low-friction environment of subspace and then claiming to not be a top-tier mechanical player and then b) conflation of what skill is (strategery, mechanics, general ability, etc).

Second, we need to provide a definition of 'skill' for this to make sense. I'm going to go with a holistic definition here. So skill a players skill isomorphic to a player's win rate when paired with all possible randomly generated teams (this number can't be actually computed completely accurately, but think of it as a player's combined league and pub win percentage when try-harding).

Third, we need a definition of what it means for a game to be skill based. This can be explained fairly simply. So given a large enough population and the definition of skill above you can plot the win percentages and they will converge onto a normal curve with the mean at a 50% win rate. The only variation across games will be the standard deviation. A skill based game is one with a higher standard deviation. That is to say, if you are 'skilled' you have better ability to influence the outcome of the game and win more often.

So now we have a model upon which we can talk about what it means for a game to be 'more' skilled in a semi-principled fashion. So what makes for a more skill based game? I'm going to posit that it involves maximizing the delta of 'gain' between the best reasonable decision and the worst reasonable decision. Further, I'm going to claim that the addition of octanes, stunners, immobilizers, jammers and even the hopper increased the the delta of gain between the best reasonable decision and the worst reasonable decision a player can make. I plan on backing up my two claims first via a logical explanation and then via an anecdotal example.

First, the logical explanation of the first claim. This boils down to the impact of reasonable choices. You want a 'better' decision to yield non-linear gains in terms of advantage. So a player who makes twice as good of decisions (whatever that means) would have four times or eight times (choose your non-linear function) the impact on the game. Impact on the game is directly correlated to your overall win rate. Higher deltas in win rate implies a more skill based game by our definitions. So this seems pretty clear in terms of agreeing with our definition.

As for the anecdotal example, think of the most useless item in your inventory -- the pulse cannon, a pd, whatever. Now think of the most devastating time it was used against you (for example, that perfect PD that split your entire team or a perfect spread of pulse cannons that zoned you out or killed you as you thrusted for a goal). Those 'perfect' usages are examples of non-linear gain from better decision making. They are also often what decides a game.

Second, the logical explanation of the second claim. I find this particular claim easiest to understand when related to humans vs computers in games such as checkers, chess and go. So if we were to rate the three games in terms of number of possible moves at each moment or total move space of the game it'd go checkers then chess then go. It even goes to the extent that checkers is now a solved game (and thus, there is 0 standard deviation between the best players -- all perfect players have identical win/loss records). Chess is slightly better off, but the best players in the world now lose to computers and the standard deviation at the top is growing much smaller. Finally, go, with the biggest move space complexity still manages to have a relatively large delta between players even at the highest levels. So we can see that as the complexity of the move space increases, the relative impact of a single move also increases. I believe this can be generalized to most games including GB. And clearly, adding in specials greatly increases the complexity of the move space.

For an anecdotal example, think of the time you were holding all the possible specials in the game. And you choose the wrong one... and absolutely nothing happened. And fuck that stunner, they must have lagged it. Now think of the time when that jammer trapped there entire team in the diamond and you went ham on everyone. Those are the boons of having a larger move space. Things like that weren't even possible before the addition of the specials. And they drastically increased your potential impact on the game when used correctly (your gain from a 'better' decision).

And with that, I think my argument is complete. AKA, you're wrong Sinai. It's mostly a bit of intellectual masturbation for shits and giggles and actually not logically sound at all, but I hope you enjoyed it none the less. I most surely enjoyed writing it. LATERS (proof reading is for suckers) 
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  Date Posted #247 Wednesday, November 13, 2013 04:01:07 AM   

Originally posted by Dug Fin
Now think of the time when that jammer trapped there entire team in the diamond and you went ham on everyone.


Originally posted by Dug Fin
the time when that jammer trapped there entire team in the diamond


Originally posted by Dug Fin
when that jammer trapped there entire team


Originally posted by Dug Fin
jammer trapped there entire team


Originally posted by Dug Fin
trapped there


Originally posted by Dug Fin
there

 
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  Date Posted #248 Wednesday, November 13, 2013 11:04:19 AM   

I agree with you Dug, great post, I pick my battles and arguing with the illogical idea that specials simplified the game is a lot of work (long post) and also, if people fail to realize it themselves then even a perfect explanation is unlikely to convince them.

Specials made the game more skillful and increased skill edges (also prevented the game from being fusion bomb spamming contest) but the popular opinion on igbl is that every change to the game made it worse because the prevalent attitude of negativity and invocations of nostalgia dictate that "maaan, the game was better back in the day before hoppers/specials/runclock/strategy/kuja/whatever." Really people missed the massive pre-sony playerbase and being a healthy teenager and they misplace those feelings imo 
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  Date Posted #249 Wednesday, November 13, 2013 04:42:23 PM   

Wait. Did you just say the game wasn't better before Kuja?

kekeke <3 
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  Date Posted #250 Thursday, November 21, 2013 09:54:24 PM   

There was nothing better than a really good pub game - 8v8 or 9v9... usually they were later at night, and both teams were loaded with vets... those late night pub games were BY FAR the most enjoyable times for GB imo. 
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  Date Posted #251 Thursday, November 21, 2013 10:38:52 PM   

When people started joining the League zone and leaving the pub zone, enforcing 6v6 (or whatever) with 20 people in spec, the game (or the fun anyway) died.
That is all. 
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  Date Posted #252 Thursday, November 21, 2013 11:38:56 PM   

Originally posted by atila
There was nothing better than a really good pub game - 8v8 or 9v9... usually they were later at night, and both teams were loaded with vets... those late night pub games were BY FAR the most enjoyable times for GB imo.


I have hundreds of memories of these scenarios with you guys. 8v8 or 9v9 were imo the optimal team sizes for the most fun in pub. 
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  Date Posted #253 Friday, November 22, 2013 03:14:16 AM   

8v8 or even 9v9 was DEFINITELY the optimal amount... the only reason league was 6v6 was because of attendance issues. 
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  Date Posted #254 Friday, November 22, 2013 09:35:27 AM   

I agree with Saluuu. 
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  Date Posted #255 Thursday, November 28, 2013 08:05:05 PM   

While the crux of Dug Fin's argument is logical, it's impractical statistical approach ignores two specific and various reasons why league may be considered less skilled. As a preface, I believe it was more skilled after developments but will suggest why it may not be.

First, more "move space" or options does add complexity in specific scenarios, but in others dumbs it down. As a GB example, say theoretically rocket rain was always a better choice to use on an opponent under all circumstances. Then adding that additional move in-game will allow the majority of players to act under the obviously best path, eliminating the more divergent skill-separating choices of the lesser options.

Hopefully this illustrates that more equally skill-defining choices adds complexity but not necessarily skill; choices that trump others can level the playing field, not enhance it. What did the hopper do? In my opinion both - it became so obvious to just jump bombs/mines/tunnel areas, but at the same time opened up the third dimension, allowed air bombs and wall jumps, and cost energy. I feel the stunner decreased the skill level while the jammer increased it. Both can be argued either way and I'm far from certain on either opinion.

Secondly, skill-based games have an illogical assumption that practise makes perfect does not count in a skill-based game. Sinai suggested, "the idea of mediocre players after five thousand hours of experience becoming the best after thirty thousand hours of experience isn't something that happens in a thriving, competitive ecosystem. Ever." I think this is untrue but has merit. The more complex the game, including meta-game development, the longer required to master it. Take a musical instrument. Five thousand hours can make you good, but (even if you're mediocre) thirty thousand hours could make you an expert. This may be true for gravball, as the play-times were so various, specifically with older players playing less. It was true that players who could use chuckers from outside the goal area were skilled, very much more so than players who could not, at least at that aspect. But the idea of needing to practise to achieve this is against the idea of a skill-based game. Anything that anyone could pick up, practise, and do, is met with the idea that it does not require skill, which is obviously paradoxical, but the argument is meant to be based on the inherent ability of the player, and not the current learned skill. When people ask if it's more or less of a skill based game, they are often not referring to the level of practise or expertise required to perform it, but rather, given equal time and effort and mastery, will we have the large variance of delta.

So I would assume that when we argue whether or not league became less skilled, we are using the colloquial variant, assessing instead of actual skill, the inherent ability of each player and whether that was more or less tested. Of course, this assessment is prone to extreme complexity and is near impossible to solve. Perhaps that is why it is attractive. Or perhaps it is simply the easy banner of players who used to be good and are vexed by the swarm of try-hards who now outclass them and possess the real skill. 
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  Date Posted #256 Thursday, November 28, 2013 09:18:18 PM   

14 years later and this shit is still going on.

the best player to touch gb died being a lunatic. that completely altered the way i looked at my time playing infantry. all of the psychotic mind games and drama that enveloped this community pretty much revolved around one person. honestly this game remains my favorite game ever, the lack of pressure to perform well and just have a good time prior to like s3 is unmatched. ilu guys 
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  Date Posted #257 Thursday, November 28, 2013 10:58:59 PM   

Originally posted by atila
8v8 or even 9v9 was DEFINITELY the optimal amount... the only reason league was 6v6 was because of attendance issues.


I could never get into league very much because 6v6 was just too fucking boring. 
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  Date Posted #258 Saturday, November 30, 2013 08:00:22 PM   

It's really hard to determine what made a great player great. In my opinion and in my own personal experience, I believe there was a level of obsession about the game that would drive certain individuals to simply just learn the game better than everyone else. When I finally got good enough that people started realizing my play, I was thinking at least 1-2 steps ahead of most people. I knew exactly what my enemies were thinking before it happened. Not in every case, but a lot. Most people were reacting to what was going on. I was already predicting before it even happened so I was reacting much less and going off my experience and my own gut feelings as to what would happen. Having that ability was simply a result of being hungrier and more obsessed than everyone else.
I know for fact that the top 5 were absolutely obsessed with the game at some point over the span of GB. With most of us, there was probably a 1-3 season span where we put in absolutely ridiculous hours just to rise above the rest. That includes myself, I definitely went through that phase.

I definitely wouldn't say I was smarter than everyone else. Many of you are much smarter than me, that's for sure. Perhaps hungrier is the right word. I wanted to be good SO bad. I analyzed my game and every single mistake I made. I analyzed other peoples games and tried to pull in things I liked that they did. I wanted to impress people and I did everything I could to do that. There was never a single game where I was ever satisfied if I wasn't the #1 player. That's just the way I was.

I think once I got over that hump, it was just always there for me....I can't explain that. To me, the core of the game remained the same for so many seasons. It was at that point that I started to refine some of the smaller details that would later make me the player I was. That core level though....I don't think most people were hungry/crazy enough to get there.

Since I only experienced my own experience, I do not know if there is a cap somewhere and every individual is different or if we were all capable of achieving the same level of play. I don't think anyone can answer that with any certainty since we've only had one single experience.